08-02-2003 06:02									#91
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns I am trying to standardize things so that players know exactly what a unit is when they see it on the map. IMO a picture should always be associated with a single set of stats unless the scenario explicitly states otherwise.

I agree, I was just suggesting that to not slow down your design and playtesting. We wouldn't release with it like that!

Perhaps you should just look through the civ2 mods section for some unit art, and then ask the authors if we can use it. I expect at least 50% would say yes. Then you or someone else with the right knowledge could change them over to Clash size.

	09-02-2003 10:00									#92
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah, most people will say its fine if theyre in the credits.

	10-02-2003 14:03									#93
	Suffering from ads?

Changing the size of bitmaps that small always looks horrible. We can simply put the smaller civ units over the larger Clash terrain. Since the game engine puts multiple units in a single tile anyway, the units need to be little smaller.

I´ll hunt around for new graphics after releasing my first batch of changes, since it doesn´t really need new art yet.

	10-02-2003 18:08									#94
	Hun horse archer, something near the end. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Here is the sample rendering:

Attachment: hun2.png
This has been downloaded 108 time(s).

	10-02-2003 18:10									#95
	The above unit downsampled Increase Your PM Length

Doesn't worth such a long work, er?

Attachment: hun_small.png
This has been downloaded 105 time(s).

	10-02-2003 18:20									#96
	Sources Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Here are files used to produce the above mess, so you can count the mistakes I've made (it'll be a long list, BTW). It's Lightwave .lwo and .lws files. Note that you'll probably need Lightwave of at least version 7.0 in order to produce hair and fur...
Now about some sad facts. Quoting Rasbelin's post on our new www.stellapolaris.info

quote: I've even catched a few in the Clash of Civilizations forum, where they certainly don't belong.

so things looks like the boss goes a bit angry . How interesting for the opensource project ...

	10-02-2003 19:42									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The game will soon have a horse archer unit with your picture. Nice work.

	28-02-2003 13:52									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have gotten permission to use the unit images of the following artists:

The ANZAC
techumseh
Prometeus
fairline
Stefan Härtel
Hobbes

A nice collection of units can be found in a thread in the Civ2 scenarios forum called Pre-Steam Graphics Showcase.

Other units can be found by searching Apolyton's database for scenarios and modpacks by these authors.

Of course, we should be sure to mention anyone in the credits if we use their stuff.

Attached is a collection of units that fits our current scenarios well:

Attachment: collection.gif
This has been downloaded 98 time(s).

	09-03-2003 13:57									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Targon stirrups weren't invented until after the fall of Rome, and I think it was by the Mongolians, so you should remove the stirrups from the image with the Hungarian if you want to be historically correct. Oh and I have a book about the Roman empire with several pictures of barbarians and Roman Legion fighting, along with pictures of the carvings on some of the buildings that remain, so if you need any advice on the Roman equiptment post it and I can look it up. The other day I built a trebuchet for my physics class and I launched a golf ball about a quarter mile using 150 lb garage door springs and the sling I made. It was about nine feet tall, so if you need someone to design that unit I could do it easily since I've seen so many pictures and diagrams of them. Still your images are extreemely good so keep it up!

-Tyler-

	08-02-2004 23:00									#100
	Got spare money?

i'm going to attempt a new set of uniform-style units.
48 x 48
with a little flag overlay.
small pallette (i like cartoon style = quick and easy, while still looking good).
I'll start with boats as Gary wants an ancient transport.

I'll be doing something along the lines of the following:
[paddle]
Dugout (where it all began)
Raft (for those caveman with lots of string)
Coracle (stoneage bearskin boat)
Kayak (more sophisticated version of coracle)
Reedboat (from the Nileto lake Titicaca)
Catamaran (for those ancient Indo-Pacific types)
fishingboat/rowing boat (?!)
Sail (for the Ancient Mediterranian types)
Galley (Gary's ancient transport?)
Bireme (is it a galley?)
Trireme (very ethnocentric - what about the others?!)

[age of sail and rudders!]
Longship (bit of an era straddler)
Junk (the first rudder was chinese)
Dhow (for Arabs)
Caravel (next step up from Galley in transport)
Brigantine (Caravel with castles, bit bigger call it T3)
Sloop (for Pirates)
Merchantman (a la Colonization?)
Galleon (for crossing the atlantic)
Sail Frigate (for protecting Galleons)
Man-o-war (napoleonic)
Clipper (big fast super sails)

[post-sail]
Steamer (for Mark Twain wannabees)
Ironclad (for scaring the flat-earthers)
U-boat (for scaring the ironclads)
Liner (for hitting icebergs with)
Patrol boat (you see them on films...)
Freighter (an upgrade in transport from the Clipper?)
Battleship (more 20 century warships data needed)
Submarine (generic wolfpack thing)
Frigate (small 20C warship)
Destroyer (big 20C warship)
Minesweeper (not AEGIS exactly)
Tanker (oil)
Research ship (for finding that oil)
Superfreighter (MT6 - Maritime Transport level 6?)
Carrier (for epic pacific conflicts)
Nuclear Sub (red october)
Hovercraft (why not!)
Ekranoplan (ground effect monster)
Hydrofoil (Dover to Oostend in 30 minutes)
Trimaran (next generation?)
futuristic undersea and amphibious vehicles (more later)

(I know there's gaps, crossover and overlap, i'm a work now, so i'll edit it later)

I think it might be worth having different sizes of some or all vessels: big galley, little galley... but I don't know what the limits are for numbers of types of units, so I'll just start from the most ancient and work forwards in time.

online sources:
http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/grkship.html
http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/grkships.html
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/ships.htm

Last edited by yellowdaddy on 08-02-2004 at 23:34

	08-02-2004 23:21									#101
	Got spare money?

This is the area in which graphics can make an immediate impact.

Two points are relevant:

1. We are concentrating on the anciant era until Version 1.0 comes out. Any graphics for other eras will not be used in the immediate future.

2. There has been a standard of having units all facing south-east. This has been modified by the introduction of graphics from other sources, with a serious randomizing result.

My preference would be for unit graphics to have eight orientations. If such graphics were available I would be prepared to do the coding to implement unit orientation.

My much longed for transport is not a galley. A galley is a fighting ship with oars. A transport is a round, sail-powered ship for carrying stuff like grain or people. So the "Sail" is the one I want.

Most of the other earlier types are not units: Dugout, Raft, Coracle, Kayak, Reedboat, Catamaran, though they could be used for movement. None have a military component. Since all would be used only to transport people, the transport that I want will replace all of them.

Cheers

	08-02-2004 23:43									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

aye, I know what your saying, but I like them (the range of canoes! the Polynesians used catamarans for transports though didn't they?)
I'll do them, and they can go into a folder called "flourishes and frills" (where most of my ideas are destined to go!)

so are we only going upto Viking longships for now or what?

--------------------

as for you transport
hows about calling it "large sail", so that there could be a "small sail" as well (we can find nicer names i'm sure)
what do you think?

there are some good links earlier on in this thread - some are familiar.

---------------------

For the moment I'd planned to do all the units side-on
the reason being, I want to get a nice set of units finished quickly.
if you want another 7 angles, that can come later, but at least the next demo would have a set of the new, though static, units to play with.

my main questions are:
a. how many colours can I use?
b. what precise angle do we want them viewed from?
I think most games seem to go for a 60 degree view from below...
It would help immensely if i had a small portion of "Gary Map" (a bit of coast showing a range of terrain both land and sea)
c. how many units can we have? do you have a list (i do!)

----------------

btw... Whatever happened to Targon? and why haven't you used his ship?
I think his ship was great, but the horse and man didn't do it for me.
I also can't see the point in doing 3d graphics and reducing them down, unless you're going to animate them, which is memory hungry isn't it? I mean they look nice, but how long do they take!
That's why I'd rather go for a cartoonist approach... you can churn out a lot of "oldskool" gfx which will be tidy enough... i think a full set of simpler cartoony units is better than one or two glory gfx like Targon did... i think you need to feel you're getting somewhere.

Last edited by yellowdaddy on 09-02-2004 at 00:17

	09-02-2004 12:56									#103
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by yellowdaddy btw... Whatever happened to Targon? and why haven't you used his ship? I think his ship was great, but the horse and man didn't do it for me. I also can't see the point in doing 3d graphics and reducing them down, unless you're going to animate them, which is memory hungry isn't it? I mean they look nice, but how long do they take! That's why I'd rather go for a cartoonist approach... you can churn out a lot of "oldskool" gfx which will be tidy enough... i think a full set of simpler cartoony units is better than one or two glory gfx like Targon did... i think you need to feel you're getting somewhere.

Bah, Targon is out there (thx to the Apolyton topic reply notification) but he's pretty disappointed with his experiences with opensource projects in general As I've already mentioned I'm with some 3D slant so 2D tile graphics is probably the wrong thing to do for me. And you see, I've left Clash anyway, especialy then Rasbelin (admin of the Stella Polaris, now it's dead project) became angry
BTW, isn't the Clash dead?

	10-02-2004 01:59									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

kak delya Targon,

Clash seems to keep hanging on. I think people who visit these projects forget that long boring periods of coding have to take place, and are done by people who often by the very nature of their skills are in demand at work as well.. meantime, for those of us who can join in the occasionally monotonous side of graphics there's still plenty to that can be done.

--------------------

i'm just adding that I'm up for doing city overlays as well, as I have an interest in creating a range of different urban overlay types, shapes and sizes...

now i shall sneak away for a while and get on with it...

	10-02-2004 07:19									#105
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think I was wrong in dismissing the rafts and coracles. They too are transports, but with more limited capabilities. So their presence would much enrich the game. As long as I get my roundship...

Personally I would like to go as far as the invention of cannon. So an Arab dhow or xebec, a junk, a proa, even a polynesian canoe would be great. We could even have a waaka as a warcraft (hey! I live in New Zealand).

quote: moment I'd planned to do all the units side-on the reason being, I want to get a nice set of units finished quickly.

Side-on is better than non-existent, but facing south-east would be better.

quote: my main questions are: a. how many colours can I use?

As many as you like. If stored as a gif (which it will be) they will be paletted to 255 plus one transparency colour. If you need more information let me know.

quote: b. what precise angle do we want them viewed from? I think most games seem to go for a 60 degree view from below...

I don't get the "from below" bit - ours are looked down on at around a 45 degree angle.

quote: It would help immensely if i had a small portion of "Gary Map" (a bit of coast showing a range of terrain both land and sea)

For these purposes a Gary map will not differ from the map as viewed in the demo. Do you have that running?

quote: c. how many units can we have? do you have a list (i do!)

Mark and I have discussed this - if we go past 10,000 I start to get uneasy...

Cheers

Gary

	10-02-2004 18:14									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

(btw i've finished an ancient transport side view(a copy of Targons, but in oldskool pixels), and i'm toying with other designs and scales... (I'll do you a SE one as well then)i think it should be smaller than the Trireme.. but it's a matter of striking the balance between a visible unit and an appropriate relative scale, i.e. I cuold make an aircraft carrier the same size as the Barque (this is the name I will use to refer to the ancient transport henceforth)
but you might want at least a little scale (is it up to me to decide how much?)

(ps, all my units have a flag overlay of 25x15 px in the top left corner)

a great list of ships which basically correlates with the naval units i want to create is to be found here:
http://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/shiptype.htm

it does leave the question of what about the Egyptian Barge/Yacht?
I think it's worth having as well as your Roman Roundship (can we have a one-word latin name for it!)
So I'll do both...

I'll need a picture of a wa'aka?! - can we have Maori Moa-back cavalry?!



(below = south to north as it were, like in Civ)

(i've got the test bed... )

that xxjiggawhoxx did some nice mountainsquares, but as squares are out, i'm having a hard time conceptualising what the Garymap will look like, however you word a description!
(I'd like this for my City overlays, which I'm also exploring... I like the idea of making little buildings and having each one represent say 10,000 pop, so your city's will spread out from their centre on the map so the size relates to the population... city types: villages, town, city, metro... city patterns: nuclear (like Moscow), coastal (like Osaka), sprawling (like Bimingham, UK), and linear (like Miami), plus some specials - river huggin (like Rotterdam), walled city (like Rome, ithsmus city (like Bombay), rock city (like Petra?), lake city (like Tenochtitlan?) .. ideas welcome...

(and I meant TYPES of units, not total units)

	12-02-2004 16:56									#107
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

with regard to land units.

the current tile for things like the roman soldier are nice, but are too detailed for the size they are... i think enlarging them by 150% (half again) is best if you want this level of detail, but I think the size is actually fine, if they only have about 4 colours, they can be drawn and animated relatively quickly...
(same goes for all units of course)
thoughts on this please...

is there a list of proposed land units?
it's tricky really, unless you opt for Civ style generalisations, how about these notes... (i've no idea really!)

(you could do them in a small range of colours to reflect races!!!)

caveman ! (8000bc)
hunter-gatherer
nomad
early warrior (up to 500BC?)
{http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/soldier.htm}
scout
Swordsman (Bronze)
Spearman (i.e. hoplite, phalanx:hypaspistoi, immortals)
Swordsman (Iron) - skirmisher, viking, legionary
ballistic troops - Assyrian Archer, Slingman
War Elephant
Heavy Cavalry (hetairoi?)
Light Cavalry (Podromoi)
ancient artillery units

Mediaeval:
Longbow
Crossbow
Mediaeval Engineer
Knight
Chain Mail soldier
Pikeman

musketeer
land cannon
naval cannon
chinese rockets

Asiatic:
Samurai
Ninja
Mongal
Hashishin

has anyone thought into this and has any agreement been reached about what land units are in, and out?!

jack

	13-02-2004 06:49									#108
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Clash explicitly starts after the hunter-gatherer stage. It is, after all, the Clash of Civilizations. Generally a hunter-gatherer society would not be called a Civilization. So cavemen and hunter-gatherers would not be used.

A nomad is a type of society, not a military type.

Early warrior is too general. And 500 BC is quite late in the piece. Before that time we would have:

Sumerian spearman
Sumerian archer
Mede spearman
Mede archer
Akaadian spearman or Babylonian spearman
Akaadian archer or babylonian archer
Assyrian spearman
Assyrian archer
Assyrian charioteer
Egyption spearman
Egyptian archer
Egyptian charioteer
Mycenaean spearman
Mycenaean charioteer
Scythian lancer
Scythian horse archer

and a great many more.

A scout is not a military unit.

I do not think that there were artillery units in the ancient era, outside of sieges.

Ninja is not a warrior type (if they existed, they would be assassins). Hashishin (?) are presumably also assassins.

Mongol is a Civilization, not a troop type.

Cheers

	14-02-2004 01:47									#109
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

One note about the ship lists: TURTLE SHIPS! These were the best ships of their time, centuries ahead of any other ship. Korean turtle ships are late game (Koreans at the time didn't use firearms though they knew gunpowder - the ship did use some kinds of cannons, was the first ironclad, and used smoke screens to hide their exact position and maneuvers).

Siege weapons probably don't need too much doing. I've already made three of them but their facing may not be correct. I even wonder whether they shouldn't simply be shown as engineers because catapults were often assembled at the place they would be used during the Middle Ages.

	14-02-2004 14:15									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ok,

I'll look into Turtle ships..

did you get my WIP of ship units? I'd appreciate some input... i.e., are you happy with the number of types, style, (relative) size (to each other), [or is it entirely up to me?!]

I think I ought to do the Aircraft Carrier (arguably there are two types - WW1 and post WW2) as well, as it is likely to be the largest naval unit and a useful relative size yardstick

I can make 8 directions for each once I know what people think (particularly about the relative size of units).

---

I'm not sure if I want to get into land units just yet. I've been dabbling in City graphics (as mentioned), so I'd like to do that after I've sorted out the sea units.

however, out of interest, are all your units going to be based on ancient middle-east/mediterranian ones...

as you may know in CIv they add in special units like Aztec Jaguar Warriors and Zulu witch doctors (or something)... do you intend to have warrior types classed in strata but with ethnoculturally distinct unit gfx, or do you intend to have entirely unique units to each civ/nation (impracticable?)
I mean, it hardly make sense to have Zulus producing their own samurai and using the same gfx as the Japs, or having the Romans producing Jaguar Warriors...
I think it would a nice touch, and entirely feasibel to have a few different shades for skin colours of units (an argument for less detailed human land units) so you cuold have black samurai and australasian Vikings etc... by having the visible skin of each unit as one or two flat colours...

	14-02-2004 15:18									#111
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: as you may know in CIv they add in special units like Aztec Jaguar Warriors and Zulu witch doctors (or something)... do you intend to have warrior types classed in strata but with ethnoculturally distinct unit gfx, or do you intend to have entirely unique units to each civ/nation (impracticable?)

Actually, it's possible to restrict units to a given civ (though I should rework it), so unique units are possible. Even better, you can change the graphics of a unit based on tech (could be something else), so a same unit can have different graphics based on a few techs. If you think civ2 scenarios which used a tech to tell you you were (or were not) of a given civ, then it's very possible to have the same unit use different graphics based on their civ. Right now, archers and siege weapons change graphics as their related techs increase.
So we certainly would like to have civ-specific units, but I think it would have to be more flexible than civ3, because civs should split and evolve differently from game to game, and you could reasonably end up with 3 'Roman' civs in a single game.

About ships, I think the list is okay, but as Gary said, we first need ancient age ships, and particularly a transport.
About galleys: Technically galleys, biremes, triremes, quintiremes are all galleys. I tend to call 'galley' a ship with a single row of oars, because I can't think of any specific name. Roundships (small/large sail) would be the first needed. As far as I know, triremes are the oldest galleys, but I may be mistaken.

	14-02-2004 15:46									#112
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Laurent - I e-mailed you a GIF of units i've started to draw! I don't mean the list I've typed on the forum! check your inbox!!!

	14-02-2004 21:01									#113
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It looks like I can't get the mail. I tested sending myself a mail through poly and it was only able to send me a mail telling me it couldn't send one. Weird... You might want to post eh gif here if it's not too big?

	14-02-2004 23:34									#114
	Increase Your PM Length

The oldest recorded fighting ship types were the triakonter (30 oars) and the pentekonter (50 oars), which were single banked galleys.

By the time of the Assyrian Empire (700 BC) the Phoenecians had developed the bireme with two banks of oars, but still with 50 oars.

The trireme was developed by about 450 BC with three banks of oars. It was technically advanced, with around 170 oars and rowers, and was the basis of all navies of the Greek era.

The hemiolia (meaning one-and-a-half) of around 500 BC was a specialized pirate vessel, able to approach under oars and sail, but ship the sail for the final attack.

The Rhodian navy modified a trireme into a tremiolia (two-and-a-half) specifically as a pirate catcher.

Carthaginian and Roman quadriremes and quinquiremes were developed by about 250 BC. A quinquireme had 120 oars and up to 300 rowers.

The liburnian was a light bireme from about 100 AD.

By 300 AD a fore-runner of the Viking longships had begun to appear in northern waters.

With the collapse of the Roman Empire, the standard vessel for the Byzantine Empire was the Dromon (and its smaller relatives). These were 50 oared biremes with varying numbers of rowers on the upper oarbank.

All of the above vessels were galleys.

Cheers

	15-02-2004 00:25									#115
	Remove this text

I sent the gif to Gary and Mark too... I'm surprised Gary hasn't posted any comments about it yet...
If I can just get my specific queries about the units cleared up, I can disappear for a while and finish them off in eight directions and whatever else you fancy.
I can then start a new thread about City squares...

I don't think i'll have time to post any images until Monday evening (maybe!) - i work all weekend, and I haven't sorted out my uploading software and web site etc..

Last edited by yellowdaddy on 15-02-2004 at 00:36

	15-02-2004 18:30									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

right, I've now created a website to host my work in progress graphics for the game.

I'll try and add more stuff over time

http://jackmcneill.tripod.com/

I look forward for some constructive criticism from all concerned.


Right, Now I've put some stuff on the site - I could post the images here, or just leave them there and amend my profile (when the baby stops screaming for a while!!)

Last edited by yellowdaddy on 16-02-2004 at 02:50

	16-02-2004 22:52									#117
	Increase Your PM Length

I looked at the images.
Except the obvious criticism that all ships don't face the same way, I think the ships look good except for the caravel, whose sails seem wrong to me. They look too triangular.
About the flag, I noticed the flag didn't always have the same size in all your boxes. I think if we want a flag, we should use it as an overlay (so people can add their own flag to existing graphics), assuming it's formatted a certain way (given X x Y dimensions).
I'm not sure about the cities. The small brown dots are hard to make out.The overall effect of the big city with lots of small suburbs looks good in the screenshot, but I can't help think it's a very American-like city. In France, you'd rather expect small buildings in the centre and skyscrapers outside in the suburbs.

	16-02-2004 23:20									#118
	Increase Your PM Length

Bonsoir (?) L,

Oui, the flags are intended to be overlays... The idea being twofold -

1. because I reckon you can't use (m)any more colours than Civ 3 does if you want to identify units for lots of civs/nations if you want to allow (m)any more nations.

2. you can have nice flags for historical accuracy. I know i'd like them in a WW2 or Napoleonic scenario - thuogh I recognise that flags are less obvious in ancient time - we'll just have to dredge through the FOTW website and do some research - I decided to just use SPQR on red for the romans...
++++++++++++++++++++++
the city overlays... i envisaged doing a range of different styles for different eras. Sure cities take different forms throughout the world, and I would do my best to replicate that. (I'll try some different colours...)

what i like about this approach is the size of the city reflects the population, and the shape of the city reflects the geography and economy.

e.g.: I could envisage an industrialised Egyptian nation with linear river-hugging conurbations rather than squares or blobs. You could display areas of mountain villages - places where cities could not evolve easily, but significant populations could exist, like in Afghanistan I suppose.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ships I just copied from whatever images I could find. That Caravel is a copy of a real one:
http://www.hobbyworldinc.com/woodship40b.html
http://www.abc.se/~m10354/bld/shiptype.htm
I think it's "the Nina"
(I can't remember where it's from, I searched on Google for Caravel, so...)
here it is - the first one that comes up!
)

----------------------------------------------------------------
I'd appreciate answers to the following questions:

1.I'd like to know how many and what different ship types are wanted!

2.I'd also like to know what people think about scale - how small should the smallest unit be compard to the biggest? and;

3. how big should they actually be? (the Carrier and Dugout

	17-02-2004 05:24									#119
	Put an end to popups!

That has got to be the strangest looking "caravel" I have ever seen depicted. Basically it is a four-masted carrack or nao with lateen sails on three masts. Such a ship may have existed, but certainly isn't a caravel. It just might be a picture of the Santa Maria, caravel rigged, but even that is doubtfull - it seems to be too big. What is the source of the picture? I checked the references with the picture but could not find this one.

In answer to the question I want a Roman era transport, that is, an ancient roundship similar to the one in your sample, but pointing in the other direction.

A series of pentekonter, bireme, trireme and quadrireme would also be nice. All pointing to the right.

Cheers

	17-02-2004 05:28									#120
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It occurs to me that the galleys should have two views, one under sail, and one under oars (wth no mast).

Cheers