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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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After a little research, caravels seem to have had either lateen or square sails. The Nina seems to have had lateen sails and then switched to square after the Canary Islands (hermaphrodite cf. http://beatl.barnard.columbia.edu/m...hipRegistry.htm ). I think square sails would be better looking/more familiar.
Also check this link: http://www.sailingships.hnpl.net/pa...y/evolution.htm which is even better. I don't think caravels per se were very used for ocean travels, while caravel redunda were, so I'd rather have the latter. Now a good thing to do would be to have the image change when a seafaring tech increases enough, going from lateen sails to square sails.
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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caravel, redo, ok... I assume the others are fine by all... I have to look into Napoleonic ships - the Man o' War and 74 gunners, frigates and all that malarky...
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the Roman Ship on the screenshot, with two sails is from the "joy of Knowledge" enclopaedia series.
it's called a Roman Grain Ship, but I've seen others with the same look, they all stress the Artemon, or foresail - so I think the one done by Targon is pretty, but not entirely right.
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as for your galleys - they might be hard to tell apart at that size?! (whatever the size is!) but I'll have a go;
and yes, ships with sails down, Fireships, and damaged ships and sinking ships/shipwrecks seem nice ideas.
speaking of size....
how big should the Logboat (or dugout) be in relation to your Roundship?
and how big should the Aircraft Carrier be in proportion to your Roundship?
If I do them all the same size, when naturally the smaller units wll be dwarfed by the bigger ones, then won't the bigger units be grossly distorted when scaled?!
(i know you're not bothered about modern units right now, but it'd be nice to know, then I can decide all the relative sizes of ships and post them up as part of a unit library for all to refer to if they want to add or modify any more, plus I can be carrying on with other units whilst waiting for the ok on the different views and any animations to do with the Roundship)
Last edited by yellowdaddy on 18-02-2004 at 15:28
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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Gary, is there already a link which has an acceptable/accurate image of a Caravel?
if not, well i can search google and books, but i'm not 100 per cent sure what i'm looking for... I always thought that Caravels were just smaller slimmer Carracks, but basically looked the same and had teh same layout.
Thinking of ancient ships - do any other RL civs have any special boats (pre-mediaeval) period? I'm thinking Persians, Phoenicians, Romans (other than roundship), Chinese (other than Junk) - I think Greeks, Vikings, Arabs and Egyptians are covered.
Laurent's korean turtle boat is an example of something amazing that i've never heard of:
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1540.htm
any more?
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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Actually, there was thatch on the roof of the turtle ship, so the enemy wouldn't see the spikes and impale themselves if they tried to board it. Since the upper plates were metallic, it also fooled the opponent into throwing flaming arrows on the thatch, which was totally useless, since the thatch would just burn away without harming the ship.
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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it strikes me that that turtle ship would have been rowed with the lid on, as it were, and some of lid would be taken away to sail it, unless the sails aer just to fool the enemy from a distance?
i've got a korean dictionary as it happens, i can't speak it really, but i could look up "turtle" and "ship", to give it a slightly more imaginitive sounding name...
gary, am i right in thinking that your roman ship is the "navis orneraria"? in latin?
what's a hermaphrodite in ship terms?
is Cabot's "Matthew" a caravel or a cog?
this seems like an interesting link - it shows how they used the ships in combat...
http://www.inisfail.com/~ancients/greek-naval.html
Last edited by yellowdaddy on 21-02-2004 at 17:38
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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Kobukson = turtle-ship. (The problem is to translate Korean sounds in the Roman alphabet. Since they have 3 sounds that might reasonably be written k...)
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Gary Thomas
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New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 17:17
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Navis orneraria simply meant cargo ship ("ship of burden" I think), so any such ship from the period 1000BC to about 400 AD would do.
The term "hermaphrodite" tended to be used for any vessel that had two purposes, two modes of operation, or two kinds of rigging. It was applied to any galley that had only half an oar bank, being mainly designed for sail. The best known use of the term was "hermaphrodite brig", another term for brigantine, square rigged on one mast, gaff rigged on the other.
Cabot's ship was called the "Mathew" (not Matthew). It was referred to as a navicula, which merely means "small ship". In 1996 a replica was built, after very careful research, and the conclusion at that time was that the Mathew was a caravel (Cabot was an Italian), and certainly not a cog. Cogs had become obsolete a century or more before.
Cheers
Cheers
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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Laurant,
I think they are written as " kk " " k " and " k' "
respectively - (same goes for the t and nd s sounds etc)
It must be a Sino-Korean word.
apparently the Japs had them too... (well similar)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironclad
Gary certainly knows his ships!
are there any other Roman (or other Civ) ships of the time which could feature? Or did they all use what we might regard as Greek ships?
Are there any other non-european/mediterranian vessels worth including for these pre-colonial scenarios?
The Roman ships on this site look pretty identical to the Greek ones...
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/A...n_galleons.html
apart from the trade ship - which is a little different to the two previous images I've seen - for a start there's no Artemon/Foresail, and the mast looks to be locate nearer the bow, whereas previous images show it to be nearer the stern...
anyone know more about ancient oriental ships - it looks like the Chinese had some massive "junks", more than just the traditional kind:
http://www.frontlist.com/detail/006054094X
http://www.oceansonline.com/zheng.htm
http://www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/shiptypes.html
on the same site, the chronology data maybe suspect, but it makes interesting reading all the same:
http://www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/chronology.html
this post is turning into a cornucopia of unit gfx reference... I think i've come across a humdinger of a site:
http://www.grinda.navy.ru:8101/sail...p/shipanote.htm
some brilliant images and info there, wot wot!
Last edited by yellowdaddy on 23-02-2004 at 23:24
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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I've got GCSE Russian and IOL Intermediate Russian diploma - which doesn't mean a lot, 'cos I can't speak a word! but I did learn the alphabet when I was a kid!
(russian girls = man-eaters!)
the images are lovely, but I still say that many of those ancient ships look awfully similar, and i'm not sure how discernable they'll be as units - but i'll 'av a go!
one disappointment is i've not managed to find many images of asian, i.e. Indian, Indonesian and Chinese vessels - there are apparently a few worth including: meaning that they are more different to each other than some of the european ones.
i'm going to do them again in a more ordered fashion and stick them on my site.
however, if/when you get the time, it'd be good to have your thoughts on which ships to leave out...
PS
I forgot this site as well, which is quite nice - no images but nicely summarised information with a nice user-friendly menu thing:
http://library.thinkquest.org/25723/ancient1.html
this site's in chinese (simplified), and contains a wealth of info (for sinophones) and images about oriental shipping, I'm just posting it so it's here for all to access.
http://shipmuseum.sjtu.edu.cn/quanzhou/quaninfo.htm
i'll also be pillaging it for gfx.
just work your way down the buttons on the left for a comprehensive set of images of chinese boats from dugouts and ancient riverskiffs to more recognisable Sampans and Junks (mu-ban-chuan).
The inclusion of such disticntive oriental units poses a question about the maritime unit tech tree.... chinese vessels have charted an evolutionary route quite different to the west, culminating in the huge 500ft Super-Junk of Zheng-He (pron. Jung-Her), and Laurant's Korean Turtleship.
There are occaisonal similarities - barges, galleys and the like, but the obvious things like the flat bottoms and lug sails are quite unique.
will there be a fork in the road on the tech tree where you have to choose whether to make v-shaped (occidental) or u-shaped (oriental) hulls? will it be determined by resources? (egyptian's had reeds, but not much wood...).
any thoughts?
Last edited by yellowdaddy on 25-02-2004 at 19:10
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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below is supposed to be the image of a ship in eight directions, it seems it mightn't appear, so you might have to go to my site address in my signiture - how annoying!
looking at the various monoremes, biremes and triremes, i've concluded that at this scale they're practically indiscernable from each other, so i've combined them as one type, whether in the game there'll be a nominal difference in speed, i don't know.
I'm not too sure about the name "galley" as, this name seems to apply to a later ship type or am i muddling up the "galleas"? . can anyone help?
ancient trade ships next.
the original one by Targon seems to be a Greek one. Mine a Roman one. I plan to do both, the Roman being the larger of the two.
The Greek one encopassing the Egyptian one on that russian ship site, as they seem fairly similar.
have a play with these units to make sure the angles ok. they can be tarted up later.
Last edited by yellowdaddy on 25-02-2004 at 23:14
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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I like the 8 directions triremes (or galleys or whatever we call them).
About the various types of units, this discussion would belong in either the military model or tech thread. Still, it's worth wondering. I also keep thinking about what units would have the aztecs evolved had they had access to iron or horses? As for the shape of the hull, I wonder how much comes from the sea (the Mediterranean is far easier to sail than any more open sea or ocean)? Gary can probably tell better.
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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from what i know (southampton univ. webpage), there are four basic boat types:
dugout, (self-descriptive!)
raft, (bindings)
skin-boat, (skeleton)
birchbark-boat (sewing)
from these are derived the techs needed to develop boats.
chinese (and egyptian initially!) boats developed on their rivers and lakes and canals.
western boats as you said, in the calm coasts of the med..
early ocean-going craft were developed by northern europeans: celts and nordics, - coracles, currachs, kayaks, umiaks, longships..., and the wooden ships of the veneti tribe are mentioned by Caesar.
aside from those, you get catamarans in the warmer oceans.
environment and climate seems to play a big part to begin with.
Chinese flatbottomed ships apparently sailed all over the place, allegedly to Mexico and France! Certainly to horn of Africa.
Malayo-Polynesians went all over the pacific and indian oceans.
Inuits all around the arctic... i don't think it seems to matter what the boats hull is like, they can still get about a bit.
Though you're right that mediterranean boats weren't geared up to the Atlantic until they acquired tech from northern europeans.
..............................................
i think it's fair enough to bring up these topics in this thread, so we know what units we are making, the reasons why are worth mentioning, perhaps there's a bit of overlap with the military model thread.
i'm only interested in finding out what they should look like really.
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Gattsuden
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Im not quite sure what I'm supposed to work on. I had conflicting orders. Someone guide me! I need to work on something before I die! I still haven't contributed! Guidence please!
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Gattsuden
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alrighty, good clear intrustions. Ill start on that right away. Is there any palette limitations for the tiles and units?
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Gary Thomas
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New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 17:17
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Java runs off RGB, so there are no limitations at that end. However, the tile graphics are gifs, so limited to an arbitrary 256 maximum colour palette, but the palette can be a different one for each tile. Also, it is quite important that the actual image be a diamond shape with the rest transparent. Because the tiles are drawn from the top down, each should overlap the one above it by a pixel or two, to avoid the background showing. The best method is to have a look at the existing grassland tile and see what its characteristics are. Of course, hills, mountains and buildings will project higher, covering parts of the tile above.
Rivers will be a bit different, covering parts of two tiles (or four at the corners). They will not work the way the coastal overlays do. Too bloody complicated. However, we will need estuaries, and maybe deltas.
Cheers
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yellowdaddy
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Saoir-Ebhor, Sasainn a tuath, Rialtas Aontach
Apr 2003
time: 05:17
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The idea of having Flora, Fauna and Urban overlays growing, spreading, changing organically is truly an original and exciting game feature if implemented.
There'll be implications for the military model as well as the economic model I imagin.
Gone are the days where you move a 1 square-filling mobile unit onto a 1 square-filling static unit (city) with two dimensional results, Bring on the polygon map and organic settlements!
Fair enough it's for the future, but I'll squeeze in a little digression, just as a mental note, i can shift it to a city overlays thread when we've got something relevant to D8 to post on one:
{How would you attack a swathe of mountain villages or }
{scattered farmsteads! you'd need to really develop the Task }
{Force idea, so you could add mongol horde-style raids perhaps.}
{different strategies too for coastal and riparian linear }
{settlements. }
{I suppose you'd need to assign admin centres or city }
{centres, as you click and draw your internal administration }
{borders, so that there is some defined place for an enemy to }
{capture, or which could potentially revolt and set up as another}
{citystate or part of another nationstate. }
{ }
{I think this would be a fascinating break from Civ where you }
{have strategic wars instead of just one-on-one unit battles. }
{ }
{When campaigning against sparse settlements and straggly }
{areas of settlement, you could capture each building one by }
{one, and thus have a defined area of control on the map, and }
{even end up in a stalemate where a large city is divided }
{between enemies. }
{ }
{As for the issue of visibility of these tiny buildings, well , one }
{solution is to have an urban background overlay - it needn't be }
{solid either - a grey/brown tint. And for the houses use more }
{contrast and shadows - i'll amend them. }
Last edited by yellowdaddy on 03-04-2004 at 23:49
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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About evolution of images: Note that I've already coded a class that lets a unit use different images as techs evolve. This could be reused for terrain, but tying the evolution of graphics to a tech would not be what we want for forest, though it might for cities (city styles).
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:17
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I got it. This has more or less been implemented in a CtP2 mod by the way (sprawling cities). I was just mentionning what's already coded and possible.
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17-02-2004 15:25
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