24-01-2002 01:32									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Wrong. If you accept Judaism as your religion you will be considered Jew for all purposes.

Makes sense. If you accept Christianity you are considered a Christian, if you accept Islam you are considered a Muslim and if you convert to Buddhism you are considered Buddhist. It only shows that Jew is only the denomiator of those following Judaism.

	24-01-2002 01:35									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove IMHO the greatest diplomat of the 29th century would have to be FDR, Harry Truman or Dwight Eisenhower.

29th century?!? I had no idea that group of people was so well versed in keeping the Dominion in check while at the same time manging an alliance with the Klingon & Romulan Star Empires?

	24-01-2002 01:37									#123
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man He was an extreme imperialist (grew up in the late 19th C, fought in many African colonial wars), extremely conservative and right winged and many times needlessly brutal (rumours he deliberatly sent the lucitania into german waters to get the US in WW1, similar things have bin said bout pearl habour to).

Well, it was commonplace for the nobility to join the army or the navy and, extreme imperialist, it suited Britain's purposes and was iconic of British character at the time. And wasn't the Lusitania sunk off the coast of Ireland?

quote: Churchill beleived in keeping the British empire at ALL costs, was very anti-Indian (called Ghandi a half naked faqir), refused to consider that ther empire had run its course and was supressing its peoples.

All the old time conservatives born into Empire believed in maintaining the Empire, it brought a lot of national prestige and wealth. He's an old school conservative remeber.

quote: He spent most of his time drunk, and the only purpose he served in WW2 was to give Britain a John Bullish figure to look up to.

No comment.

quote: IMO, Churchill represented EVERYthing that was bad about the British empire from the start of the New Imperialism till 1945.

Of course, the unbroken morale, the inspiration, the self sacrifice (and even if you tell me he didn't do all this he was still representative of it) was the worst thing of the British Empire.

	24-01-2002 01:50									#124
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El Awrence, everything you said is what i hate bout the british empire post 1880. The reason i dont like Churchill is because he was one of the old school conservatives etc. up untill 1875ish, everything in thwe British empire was good. ok, not everything, but it truly was a center for libralism etc.

Also, with the empire bringing prestige etc, that was another point of the new imperialism whcich i thought sucked. Shouldn't the empire have been about the economic growth of Britain and her subjects (be they indian, african or english).

you can see, i have no love for the empire after 1880, except for Sherlock Holmes. the new imperialism was an age of hypocracy and opression and conservative thinking, so when you have THE John Bull being called the greatest politician of a century, when the whole later half (post 1945) always put down the British empire (normally for the right reason) and put down everything that the centuries hero represented, i get kinda pissed off and confused...

	24-01-2002 01:53									#125
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My memory might be failing me, but I'm sure Churchill won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

That's pretty good for a useless old drunk.

	24-01-2002 02:01									#126
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i never said he was stupid. All credit to him for he mastery of the english language (speech, wit etc) but that dont = great person, other-wise hitler is a hero.

	24-01-2002 02:16									#127
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 29th century?!? I had no idea that group of people was so well versed in keeping the Dominion in check while at the same time manging an alliance with the Klingon & Romulan Star Empires?

Actually in the 29th century the Federation is busy tryiing to keep the timeline from being messed up.

But I meant 20th, OK?

	24-01-2002 02:36									#128
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man i never said he was stupid. All credit to him for he mastery of the english language (speech, wit etc) but that dont = great person, other-wise hitler is a hero.

What heroic things has he done?

	24-01-2002 03:33									#129
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Was Hitler noted for his English, or his wit?

Actually, that's a brilliant idea. Imagine if, right after he declared "Eine reich, eine volke, eine fuhrer" there was a snappy little rimshot on the drums and someone heckling "Get off! You're rubbish!". The world would have been a better place.

	24-01-2002 03:35									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove But I meant 20th, OK?

I was just having a little fun with ya.

	24-01-2002 14:41									#131
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man El Awrence, everything you said is what i hate bout the british empire post 1880. The reason i dont like Churchill is because he was one of the old school conservatives etc. up untill 1875ish, everything in thwe British empire was good. ok, not everything, but it truly was a center for libralism etc.

Whether a politian does the good or the bad thing is irrelevant.
A good polititian doesn't necessary mean being humanitarian.

And whether you like him or hate him is irrelevant too.

I didn't like either Kemal Attaturk but he was the greatest politian/leader of Turkey.

	24-01-2002 16:16									#132
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So, let's list a few Great men:

Buda - not "Ferman"
Confucious - not "Ferman"
Jesus - not "Ferman", actually a Palestinian, born in Judeia (Bethlehem), raised in Judaism,... which makes him... a Jew (right? )
S. Thomas Aquino - principal author of Catholic Philosofy an Theology; French; not "Ferman"
Socrates - not "Ferman"
Aristotles - not "Ferman"
Pithagoras - not "Ferman"
Arqhimedes - not "Ferman"
Copernicus - not "Ferman"
Galileo - not "Ferman"
Newton - not "Ferman"
Marco Polo - not "Fer...
Vasco da Gama - not ... (had to put one Portuguese)
Fernão de Magalhães - ... (hey, I'm starting to like this )
Livingstone - ...
Cook - ...
Ben Franklin - ...
Thomas Jefferson - ...
Edison - ...
Marconi - ...
Alexander Bell - ...
Marie Curie - ...

The ones remembered by lightblue

"Anyway another option would be the English (Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens, Darwin, Churchill etc. etc.), the italians (Verdi, Dante, Da Vinci, Michelangelo etc. etc.) or the Dutch (Rembrandt, Van Gogh, Vermeer, Leeuwenhoeck etc. etc.). "

If you want, you can discard Churchil. There are plenty more in that group you can't discard!

Well, let's leave it like this.

If you find a list wiht german great men bigger than this i'll continue it. Deal?

	24-01-2002 18:43									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Jesus - not "Ferman", actually a Palestinian, born in Judeia (Bethlehem), raised in Judaism,... which makes him... a Jew (right? )

How the hell can you call someone who lived 2000 years ago a "Palestinian" if the term exists only for 35 years?
Accept it, the "Palestinian" nationality exists for 30 years, and there is nothing different between a "Palestinian" and an Arab.

	24-01-2002 18:51									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Eli How the hell can you call someone who lived 2000 years ago a "Palestinian" if the term exists only for 35 years? Accept it, the "Palestinian" nationality exists for 30 years, and there is nothing different between a "Palestinian" and an Arab.

Wasn't Jesus an Aramean (not sure for the spelling)?
Or was he Hebrew?

	24-01-2002 18:56									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen Wasn't Jesus an Aramean (not sure for the spelling)? Or was he Hebrew?

He was Jewish, but his native language was almost certainly Aramaic, which was the language spoken in Roman Judea.

	24-01-2002 19:03									#136
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was copernicus german or poland? anybody who knows?

	24-01-2002 19:25									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Moritz was copernicus german or poland? anybody who knows?

As far as I know he was Polish.

	24-01-2002 19:41									#138
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Eli wrote:

quote: How the hell can you call someone who lived 2000 years ago a "Palestinian" if the term exists only for 35 years?

I parcially agree with you.
Certainly Jesus was not a Palestinian as the the term is carved nowadays.
However, Palestine is not a term with 35 years, if i'm not mistaken. Didn't the Roman Empire called that region Palestine?

Some ilustrative links:
http://www.usd.edu/erp/Palestine/palestin.htm

http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN600NTWORLD.htm

http://www.google.com/search?q=roma...stine&hl=pt&lr=

Jesus was born in a territory known, at the time, as Palestine, which makes Him a Palestinian, much as current Israelis are Palestinian themselves, for the name, Palestine, remained. However, it doesn't make Him a Palestinian as the current meaning goes. You know, i was born in the Iberian Peninsula, also called Hyspanic Peninsula, which does not make me Spanish.

However all those born in Palestine may be called Palestinians, the same way those born in the Arabic Peninsula may be called Arabs, and those born in Europe, European. Therefore, those that are currently called Palestinians are, in fact, Palestinians. However, they are as much Arabs as Isreallis are, which is not a single bit.

Now... please recall I said Jesus was Jew (from birth - Judea, from teaching and culture, and from religion by which He was educated). I said Jesus was Palestinian knowing I was being inacurate.

I did it to stress one point though. That the land, where both Israellis and "currently named" Palestines live in, belong to both of them. In some way they are both Palestine, both people love their land, both suffer from seing it destroyed by biggots, from either side (there are no saints here).

However, it was a bit of topic. The main point is that, other than the fine examples of Einstein (the only thing German in him was his place of birth), Jesus, one of the greatest men in hystory (my personal favourite), was 100% Jew/ 0% "Ferman".

But, of course, that was not the only mistakes Hitler did.
Question his, did he make something right?

	24-01-2002 19:55									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns Didn't the Roman Empire called that region Palestine?

A small quiz for everyone. When and why the Romans started to call this land Palestine, and what did the name described before that? Dont forget sources.

	24-01-2002 20:00									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Eli A small quiz for everyone. When and why the Romans started to call this land Palestine, and what did the name described before that?

Ya, got me on the first part of the question. But for the second part, wasn't it originally called Judea?

	24-01-2002 20:02									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns However, Palestine is not a term with 35 years, if i'm not mistaken. Didn't the Roman Empire called that region Palestine?

Ecowiz, Palestine was more a geographical name rather a national distinction until recently in my opinion.

They might have called the people inhabited there Palestinians in the past too but as far as I know there was no Palestinian nationality but populations from different orientation mixed together and call them all Palestinians from the name of the region.

	24-01-2002 20:38									#142
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Well, Eli, I've got a little problem with sources... But let's see if you believe me. The Romans started calling what was before Provincia Judea "Palestina" after the Phillistines. They also evicted most Jews, changed Jerusalem to Ilia (or something) Capitolina, etc. etc. because of the Rebellion just surpressed.
Just FYI, the Romans had lots of coins circa 80 AD picturing "Judea Capta" - so here's about Jesus being a Palestinian. Anyway, again, if you want to call someone's nationality after Palestine, you'd better use Phillistine since that's where the name came from. Of course current day Palestinians have no connection to the Phillistines

Now about the Judaism question: You might call it Hebrews, Israelites or Jews - doesn't matter. All these mean the same thing. It is both a religion and a nationality. Not a race.
One can join a nationality by becoming like any other member of it, and Jewish nationality is defined by religion, culture, collective memory, tradition and so on. Also language. In all these things there were of course complications during the millenia, but it would suffice to say that the public (at least pretends to) accepts the Ethiopian Jews as, well, Jews. Although the are black yadda yadda yadda.

~Mark

PS. Odd occasions I choose for popping in...

	24-01-2002 20:54									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen Ecowiz, Palestine was more a geographical name rather a national distinction until recently in my opinion. They might have called the people inhabited there Palestinians in the past too but as far as I know there was no Palestinian nationality but populations from different orientation mixed together and call them all Palestinians from the name of the region.

Of course, you're right. I mention that in the post, too:

Quoting myself:

quote: However all those born in Palestine may be called Palestinians, the same way those born in the Arabic Peninsula may be called Arabs, and those born in Europe, European.

When saying Jesus was Palestinian I meant it in this way. When meantioning His nationality, i said He was Jew.

	24-01-2002 22:48									#144
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In http://www.usd.edu/erp/Palestine/palestin.htm

"In the first century BCE Pompey reorganized much of the eastern Mediterranean to suit Roman interests. Subsequently Palestine became a client kingdom or group of client kingdoms under such local monarchs as Herod the Great. After Herod's death, its heart, Judaea, became a province under the authority of the governor of Syria, but the Jewish Revolt of 66 to 73 or 74 CE prompted Vespasian to reorganize it as a senatorial province with a permanently stationed legionary force. Hadrian renamed the province Syria Palaestina. It kept this name, often shortened to Palaestina, until the end of the fourth century, when in the wake of a general imperial reorganization Palestine became three Palestines: First, Second, and Third. This configuration, as far as we know, persisted into the seventh century and the Persian and Muslim conquests."

So Jesus could not be a Palestinian.

But, again on topic: he was a Jew!!! And one of the greatest men in Hystory!!! Better than any German, is any account I can think off!!! The comparison is unfair by itself!!!

	24-01-2002 23:56									#145
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Gooooooood.

This land was always called Israel or Judea.
But there was a small strip of land in the place of today's Gaza Strip(only bigger) inhabited by the Philistines who came to the area aproximately in the same time Jews came(1300-1200BC).
After the Great Uprising(or was it after the 135AD uprising?) the Romans changed the name of the land to Syria Palestina(like you found out) and the name of Jerusalem to Ilia Capitolina(as Mark said) also forbidding Jews from visiting or living in Jerusalem.
Since then, the land was called Palestine and the Jews werent able to change it(exile and stuff).
There is no connection between the modern Palestinians to the Philistines and the people who lived in Eretz Yisrael() in those times since most of the Palestinians immigrated to this land aproximately in the same time Jews did.