26-01-2002 17:37									#1
	Direct attack against free speech by US secret services! Tired of ads?

From la.indymedia.org:

quote: LOS ANGELES, JAN 23 2002 - Heavily armed with high-powered machine guns, shot guns, and hand guns, the FBI, Secret Service, and Los Angeles Police Department sorounded the founder of raisethefist.com in his house. The founder was currently asleep, woken up by a relative who said fbi, police and undercover's were currently up and down all of the streets, with they're eyes focused on the premises. Raisethefist.com founder aproached the door were 2 FBI agents demanded that he step outside. Within seconds a swarm of FBI raided the house with automatic weapons and shot guns. Additional police and fbi also stayed on the front lawn, around the house with a door baracade and additional weapons. "armed and ready". FBI and secret service entered the house, seizing all servers and political liturature. Raisethefist.com was currently being ran within the founders room of the house, over a computer network. The room was literarly ransacked, and all equipment, disks, cd's .. etc. were boxed up, loaded into a truck and seized until further notice. Since 1999, raisethefist.com has been under extensive government monitering. At times, Raisethefist.com has recieved over 100 hits from the U.S Department of Defense in a single day. The FBI, police department, NSA (and who else) continuesly monitered the site on a daily basis. Even government's from the UK, Canada, Lavtia, Belgium, Egypt, Finland, and Australia monitered the site continuesly. The FBI had also previously intercepted all packets going through the DSL line hosting the site, and have seized additional accounts being used by the site. In yet another successfull attempt to silence our vioces, Raisethefist.com, an anarchist/activist independent media/collective has been shut down by the secret service. "It's not yet known at this point if the site will be back up. As of now, we have nothing. No more servers, no more network, nothing. My room remains completly ransacked. My neighbors remain shaken up by what happend. I most likely won't be getting any of the equipment back. They also took alot of my political litature. Apparently, they're excuse for shutting it down was the 'militancy' portrayed on the site. This is not true. This was an excuse. This same 'militancy' they were concerned about is portrayed on at least a thousand other web sites across the internet, and they havn't been touched by the federal government, with the exception for remote monitering. Raisethefist.com was progresive. It was going somewhere. Kids started creating clubs in their schools called 'RaisetheFist'. People started utilizing the collective as a powerful resource for the activist/anarchist community. The federal government has been investigating me, and the site very closely, long before 9-11, and long before such militancy was even portrayed on the site. They knew the site had potential, that it was turning into something more than a site, but a strong collective utilized by activists throughout the world committed to social justice. And that's become a crime. Justice has become a crime. Freedom has become a crime. Anyone activly disagreeing with policies of the U.S is now automaticly rendered a "terrorist" in the eyes of national security.... Where raisethefist.com will go from here, I don't know. Based on what i've been told, i'll most likely be in jail, so most of my focus will be towards getting an attorney."

Another strike against the so-called "freedom" that Americans are supposed to enjoy in their country.

As it seems, only those who conform are allowed to be free in this "land of wonders"...

	26-01-2002 17:39									#2
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indymedia...

	26-01-2002 18:00									#3
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oh goodness me

	26-01-2002 18:26									#4
	This isn't funny... Got spare money?

It looks funny, until you find your house surrounded...

	26-01-2002 18:48									#5
	Remove this text

Sorry, my sarcasm was not lack of sympathy, but lack of surprise.

	26-01-2002 19:28									#7
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What was that site anyway?

	26-01-2002 19:30									#8
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I've never seen the site but I hope that he, or someone else, recreates it in a new location or under a new guise.

	26-01-2002 20:05									#9
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Wow, what a great source. You can tell how professional they are by their spelling, "litature".


So, if this was in LA, where's the LA Times report on it?

Oh, and I wouldn't be too surprised if this is just a little slanted. Gotta keep those people fighting the system.

	26-01-2002 20:10									#10
	Remove this text

Is there an objective source that I could see on this incident? Or would it be considered acceptable if I started quoting stormfront.org's view of events as if it were gospel and expect you to agree with it?

	26-01-2002 20:15									#11
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Is there any reason why this source is not to be considered objective?

As objective as it can be, at any rate.

	26-01-2002 20:22									#12
	Remove this text

This doesn't sound very good at all. However, I would certainly appreciate if I got a chance to find out what kind of site raisethefist.com was like, exactly, and whether there's more going on here than meets the eye.

	26-01-2002 20:27									#13
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Is there any reason why this source isn't to be reporting objective news?

1) What was the reason for the raid? The posted article makes it seem like that it was based on the sole fact that he was the webmaster of an anarchist website. In which case why hasn't http://www.anti-state.com/ been raided as well?

2) You'll have to forgive me if I don't accept opinion pieces as fact?

	26-01-2002 20:31									#14
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Has this site been consistently pro-anarchism, generally anti-establishment, or has some sort of clear bias?

	26-01-2002 20:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Has this site been consistently pro-anarchism, generally anti-establishment, or has some sort of clear bias?

The bias is clear in the "news" article, Urban. Even if it came directly word for word from the BBC itself wouldn't clear it of its bias.

	26-01-2002 20:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Is there any reason why this source is not to be considered objective?

Well, in the middle east section you have Israeli Jews who ignore the teracts but keep posting long daily lists of cease fire violations by the Israeli Occupation Army.

	26-01-2002 20:50									#17
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A cursory internet search pick up at least three ongoing matter than might bring crimminal investigation. I just skimed pages
with out going into details
1. the USA founder of raise the first and several other members are already facing trials stemming from violent demonstations in Long Beach last May. Assuming the founder above is thsame as the one previously arrested this would indicate he was out on bail.
2. They are some articles suggesting that they may be aiding the haboring of illegal aliens, a rather touchy subject right now.
3. The Peru branch of raisethefist has been under investigation for connection to the Shinning Path guerillas.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola on 26-01-2002 at 21:06

	26-01-2002 20:59									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Lefty, thank you for providing that info.

Direct attack against free speech, indeed.

	26-01-2002 21:40									#19
	Some angry comments: Enter the AD-FREE zone

1. Indymedia is a place where anybody can post a news bulletin. This article was not written by indymedia staff and it's author is unknown. I tend to believe it though.

2. I didn't claim that indymedia, this article and myself are not biased against the US secret services.

3. "Violent demonstrastions", specially with the definition that US law enforcement tend to give to the term (blocking traffic, resisting arrest, breaking blockades, etc), is not a crime in my book.

4. "Harboring of illegal aliens" isn't a crime either, for those who believe in the freedom of the movement of people.

5. The LA Times CANNOT be cosidered unbiased. It is corporate media.

6. Israel indymedia is one of the few places in israeli media where one can read about the other side of the Palestine argument. I admire them for their guts to speak for justice and the oppressed, against their "national interests" and without fear of the threats by the state and paramilitaries.

7. I feel that DinoDoc is too eager to discredit me, indymedia and this article. I don't require you to agree with me, but I won't stand having the sincerity of my posts challenged like this. Hell, when a country is filled with reactionaries like DD, it's no wonder the govt is allowed to do such things!

As a matter of fact, anybody who supports such actions are free to DEMONSTRATE their support. Why don't they, I wonder?

	26-01-2002 21:49									#20
	Re: Some angry comments: Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by axi 7. I feel that DinoDoc is too eager to discredit me, indymedia and this article. I don't require you to agree with me, but I won't stand having the sincerity of my posts challenged like this.

Don't parade opinion puff pieces as fact and I won't have reason to challenge the sincerity of your posts. Now would you like to answer my question about stormfront.org or explain to me what the difference between the two examples would be?

Perhaps, you could also tell me what interest the Finnish government would have in the site in an effort to rehabilitate the article?

	26-01-2002 21:54									#21
	Re: Some angry comments: Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by axi 6. Israel indymedia is one of the few places in israeli media where one can read about the other side of the Palestine argument.

Did you ever read the Israeli media at all?

The Israeli Indymedia is composed of 20 insane people who would be happy to see all Jews in the sea and 30 people who read it.

	26-01-2002 22:16									#22
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quote: explain to me what the difference between the two examples would be?

If you can't find any difference between indymedia and stormfront, then I have nothing to explain to you, you're a nihilist.

quote: Perhaps, you could also tell me what interest the Finnish government would have in the site in an effort to rehabilitate the article?

What? Please explain.

quote: The Israeli Indymedia is composed of 20 insane people who would be happy to see all Jews in the sea and 30 people who read it.

More and more people around the world are beginning to wish to see all Jews in the sea. The problem is that it's your government that's causing this. The viewpoint of indymedia and some other israeli organisations is the only way to reverse this trend and if their fellow countrymen believe that they are insane, then your whole nation is insane.

	26-01-2002 22:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola A cursory internet search pick up at least three ongoing matter than might bring crimminal investigation. I just skimed pages with out going into details 1. the USA founder of raise the first and several other members are already facing trials stemming from violent demonstations in Long Beach last May. Assuming the founder above is thsame as the one previously arrested this would indicate he was out on bail. 2. They are some articles suggesting that they may be aiding the haboring of illegal aliens, a rather touchy subject right now. 3. The Peru branch of raisethefist has been under investigation for connection to the Shinning Path guerillas.

IMHO, if what is reported above is the reason, then by alll means, I agree with what transpired. But if it wasnt, then I dont. I have to agree with those commentators whom reflect the views that we as forum posters often slant toward generating a sympathetic response via our posting position. Im not for "BIG BROTHER" but then again Im not for a bunch of wanna-b dictators causing strife and derisions within our as current "unstable" environment, where we look upon folks from the middle east as potential terrorists, instead of giving them a chance. I agree we need government intervention to a degree. How far should our sources go? I am not qualified to quantify what is and is not a qualifying event and I can imagine this forum will be flooded with so called"experts" but seriously, we do need cyber policing and intervention so as to avoid hate groups and violent protest groups causing internal strife. I hear the calling of "Freedom of Speech" advocates. But this is not Freedom of Speech when we intend to disrupt the flow of a normal lifestyle that this nation has endured to provide us. Ok, spam and thread jackers come forth, but seriously, we need to have someone watching and reacting to threats of the very survival of our society. Ok, if you get a splinter in your hand, you ignore it, your body will do what it can to stop the natural infection. But if left untreated, could possibly cause severe limitations on what and how you operate in the future. Honestly, we need to deal with subversive groups accordingly, swiftly and yes mistakes are made, but by all sides, I am not accusing the raisethefist group, just sayingif they are wrong then they called down the thunder upon themselves!

Now, this is my view, not trolling but responding my view. Please commence bombarments at will!!!

Yours In Civin

Troll

	26-01-2002 22:21									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by axi What? Please explain.

It might help your case if you actually read your own articles. This is the quote to which I was refering: Even government's from the UK, Canada, Lavtia, Belgium, Egypt, Finland, and Australia monitered the site continuesly. The emphasis is mine.

Edit: I'm not even asking for all that much. Just come up with a plausible reason for why so many diverse governments would be in such a wide ranging conspiracy to frame one man on trumped up charges. Is that really so hard?

	26-01-2002 22:23									#25
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That source isn't all that credible. They not only have serious trouble spelling, but also seem to have the roles of the Secret Service and FBI confused rather poorly into some kind of giant evil web surfin badass militia.

Horrible site anyway.

	26-01-2002 22:30									#26
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quote: Originally posted by axi If you can't find any difference between indymedia and stormfront, then I have nothing to explain to you, you're a nihilist. What? Please explain. More and more people around the world are beginning to wish to see all Jews in the sea. The problem is that it's your government that's causing this. The viewpoint of indymedia and some other israeli organisations is the only way to reverse this trend and if their fellow countrymen believe that they are insane, then your whole nation is insane.

Why Dino is even wasting his time with you is beyond me.


Dino: It's not worth it. If he can't see why his source is biased then their is no reason to even try. All you need to do is read his statements.

	26-01-2002 22:34									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh, now I get it.

Evidently, even "progressive" governments like the finnish one are interested in "pulling out the splinters" out of their bodies, as Troll has successfully put it. I don't know what their special interest was, but international interest of secret services about this site doesn't mean that it should be shut down.

quote: But this is not Freedom of Speech when we intend to disrupt the flow of a normal lifestyle that this nation has endured to provide us.

Does this "normal lifestyle" include commodities acqired through the exploitation of billions of people around the globe? Is capitalism above freedom of speech?

	26-01-2002 22:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why Dino is even wasting his time with you is beyond me.

It is fun making people sound like raving paranoid lunatics, especially when they start dodging questions with pointy ends.

	26-01-2002 23:15									#29
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This reeks of Bullshit. Why would the SS be involved in going after some website guy? Their jurisdiction is Counterfeiting, etc and threats to the President. Plus all those other countries looking into it. And how it mentions how there were 100+ guys w/ heavy weapons going after one guy.

Plus I can't find anything about it anywhere else on the web. My guess is that someones been watching too many movies.

	26-01-2002 23:23									#30
	Re: Some angry comments: Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by axi 4. "Harboring of illegal aliens" isn't a crime either, for those who believe in the freedom of the movement of people.

You know, there's a reason they're called "illegal" aliens...just because you believe people should be free to move about doesn't change the fact that this is a crime...