13-02-2002 02:42									#31
	Figure skating is not a sport Put an end to popups!

At least the WWF admits that its results are scripted in advance. It is time for figure skating to drop the pretense that it's a sport.

	13-02-2002 03:21									#32
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http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/ce/mult..._281206,00.html

quote: Canada calls for investigation into judging SALT LAKE CITY -- Canada's Olympic delegation called for an investigation into the judging that gave the Russians the pairs gold medal over the Canadian team. Others in the sport say this could be the first sign that figure skating is due for some drastic changes. The International Skating Union, which oversees the sport, said Tuesday it will conduct an "internal assessment" of the narrow loss by world champions Jamie Sale and David Pelletier to Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze on Monday night. "There should be pressure applied to investigate the results of this particular event," said Sally Rehorick, Canada's chief of mission, a former skater and a judge for 25 years. "We will request an investigation. I do feel the credibility of our sport could be negatively affected by this decision." That decision gave the Russians gold by the slimmest of margins. "It was like somebody punched me in the stomach," Pelletier told NBC's Today show Tuesday. "But at the same time, we can sit here and talk about it for weeks but it's not going to change the results." But it should change figure skating, said longtime coach Frank Carroll. "This is the worst thing that's happened in a long time in figure skating," he said. Carroll was Linda Fratianne's coach in 1980, when Fratianne lost the gold medal to East Germany's Anett Poetzsch amid allegations of judges trading votes along political lines. "People say figure skating shouldn't be in the Olympic Games because it's a play sport, it's not a real sport (and) you can almost see where they're coming from ... when you watch that on TV," Carroll said. "The ISU has a lot of work to do as far as getting the judging system worked out." Rehorick said subjectivity in figure skating was fine, "as long as the subjectivity is based on fair play in the spirit of the Olympics." ISU secretary general Fredi Schmid said that the outcry following the judging prompted the organization to undertake "an internal assessment to monitor if the ISU rules and procedures have been respected." When the marks flashed and the boos rained down Monday night, Pelletier buried his face in his hands and Sale's eyes filled with tears. There was no easy way to explain how they could have looked so magical, yet come away with silver. If only they'd made some mistake, left something out, maybe then they could understand. But this is figure skating, and the answers are rarely simple. "That's the way skating works," said Sale, trying to contain her emotions. "It's judged." NBC commentators were amazed at the decision. Sandra Bezic, a former Canadian pairs champion, even went so far as to say she was "embarrassed for our sport." "How did that happen?" asked Scott Hamilton, the 1984 Olympic champion. "(They) won that program, there's not a doubt for anyone in the place, except for maybe a few judges. "That will be debated forever." For the Russian coach, however, the issue was closed. "For two years, we considered that Elena and Anton won, but it went to the other couple," said coach Tamara Moskvina, referring to recent losses by her top pair, including their loss to the Canadians at last spring's world championships in Vancouver, British Columbia. "We didn't accuse the North American bloc, we just accepted it. So now it is our time." Sale and Pelletier put on the kind of memorable performance that defines a career. And the Canadians did it even after Sale had the wind knocked out of her when she crashed into Sikharulidze during warmups. Though she initially felt "paralyzed" by the crash, Sale and Pelletier skated with passionate abandon. Every move and detail of their Love Story program was flawless, including two huge throw jumps. Fans were chanting "Six! Six!" when it ended -- begging the judges to award the Canadians a perfect score. Pelletier was so overcome he dropped to his knees and kissed the ice, then leaned back and let out a scream as he pumped his fists. "We didn't come here to win gold, we came here to do our best," Sale said. "We were on tonight, we really were. What else can you ask for?" Especially considering the pressure they've been under. Sale and Pelletier had won nine competitions in a row, including the world championships last spring, and they gave Canada its best hope to win its first pairs gold since 1960. They couldn't go anywhere without someone wishing them well -- expectations that became more of a burden than an inspiration. "The last six months were so tough," Pelletier said. "You go to the grocery store and it's, 'Bring back the gold.' You go to the hardware store and it's, 'Bring back the gold.' I'm just trying to buy a hammer!" Family and friends tried to ease the couple's pain by serenading them with O, Canada when they arrived at Canada House in Salt Lake City early Tuesday. "I was sad to come second," Pelletier said. "But like Jamie said, nothing will ever take away that performance." But it will always be tinged with thoughts of what might have been. Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze's program, to Meditation, was strong but hardly perfect. Sikharulidze stepped out of a double axel, and they couldn't match the Canadians' emotion. Yet they still collected seven 5.9s for artistry, with the Chinese and Polish judges favoring the Russians and making the difference, ensuring a Russian or Soviet pair has won every gold medal since 1964. The Canadians got only four 5.9s for artistry. But Sikharulidze refused to apologize for the shiny golden disc hanging around his neck. He and Berezhnaya were silver medalists four years ago, and it's been anything but a smooth transition from second to first. They withdrew from the 2000 world championships after Berezhnaya failed a drug test, which she said was caused by over-the-counter cold medicine. They were then suspended for three months by the International Skating Union and stripped of their European crown. "Yeah, sure, because I have a gold medal," Sikharulidze shot back when someone asked if he and Berezhnaya had skated a winning program. "All competitions are decided by fate." China's Shen Xue and Zhao Hongbo won the bronze. American champions Kyoko Ina and John Zimmerman finished fifth in a performance Ina called "the best rush I have ever felt in my career." Ina, who was ninth in the 1994 Games and fourth in Nagano in 1998 when she partnered with Jason Dungjen, leaped up like a schoolgirl with straight A's on her report card when she saw the couple's marks. "I can walk away and say, 'Wow, that was terrific,'" she said. That's a feeling Sale and Pelletier will never know. "What we can't control, we can't control," he said. "That's the way it is."

I can't *wait* to see how this turns out. *rolleyes*

	13-02-2002 04:02									#33
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If they wanted skating to be taken for a real sport, they need to bring in a defense. Couldn't you just see someone going for a triple lutz and getting body checked half way through. That would be worth watching.

	13-02-2002 04:04									#34
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Does anyone know what the reaction of the Russian skaters who got the gold medal was?

	13-02-2002 04:12									#35
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Now what I don't get why everybody knows so much about figure skating, now speedskating that's a sport

	13-02-2002 05:02									#36
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I didn't see it, but Jamie Sale is hot, so I'm with the canadians. BTW, does anyone remember Chen Lu? She was hot too. (She used to be my favorite skater )

Anyway, I do think the Canadians got screwed. I think Russia threatened Poland.

	13-02-2002 05:27									#37
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The Americans indeed deserved to medal last night over the Chinese, no real question about that. Oh, and about Canada and Russia - I think it's time someone got up and admitted the whole damn thing was fixed from the start, as it's been for countless years, and told everyone to move on. Whatever they want to call it, dancing gaily on ice like fruity wimpy little girls (only disturbing in pairs, naturally) is a subjective and booring sport that any biased and hardly select group of judges from a painful list of no-name countries could bring down. You got screwed, the Russians sucked, so did the elitist judges, end of discussion.

I do look forward to whatever the bold new investigation produces, however, although a separate ruling to overturn an evil and outdated one would be highly unlikely given our current and now failing "system" centered around power, I guess.

	13-02-2002 06:59									#38
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I don't think U.S deserved it more than the Chinese couple because they attempted a great feat which no others can do, which is a quadraple twist, the woman fell on that. Other than that I think the Chinese couple certainly beat the American couple in technical area.

Also regarding the Canadian thing, I got no comment, we all know the refs are corrupted people.

	13-02-2002 07:22									#39
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Bring back Torvill and Dean...

	13-02-2002 08:15									#40
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Now what I don't get why everybody knows so much about figure skating

Because these kinds of incidents are common, and thus, the news will blabber on about it.

	13-02-2002 09:39									#41
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Yep we got screwed... hopefully some sort of shake down occurs. Apparently it was like this in ice dancing as well, but "apparantley" that has been fixed. We'll see.

They should just get rid of the judges selecting ranks, as opposed to just using the points. If they had, the Canadians had higher total points 105.1, to Russias 104.7.

What gets me is that when the Russians came off the ice after skating, the guy was shaking his head, as if he knew they fud up. And the Canadian guy was estatic about his performance. Kinda strange.

	13-02-2002 11:38									#42
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The latest development is that the French Judge traded his vote with the Russian judge to award them the gold if the Russian judge would vote a gold to the French Ice Dancing team...

This isn't a sport... it's a joke

	13-02-2002 11:55									#43
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Things to consider.

IIRC, the short and long are both combined to make the decision as to who gets the medals. The Russians did very well the night before.

Two, the difficulty of the performance counts in scoring. Unfortunately, I was unable to see the Russians in the long performance, but I saw the Canadaians, and I think they got a friggan gift with the scores they received. Yes, they were technically flawless, but they skated slowly and standing upright. These two things decreased the difficulty of their routine. I also think their routine lacked passion, they were boring.

As for the Chinese, they deserved their medal. They only lost it once, attempting a feat which still has yet to be done in the Olympics, and quad axel. You get brownie points just for trying something like that. The rest of their performance was without mistakes. Even the ever present announcers who could shut up with another pair fell silent as the Chinese skated. Their performace, while not techincally perfect, was full of fire and passion and was fantastic.

So, I can't say the Russians deserved their gold, and clearly you could see they didn't think they did, but I don't think the Canadians deserved it.

And that's the last I'll say 'till Saturday, when I'm back. (edit: okay, maybe not)

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 13-02-2002 at 12:16

	13-02-2002 12:01									#44
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That's real nice and all, Che, but it's skirting around the real issue:

Several Judges (one in question here specifically) gave both the Russians and Canadians EQUAL marks for technical. How the hell could that be, seeing as the Canadians didn't f*ck up once while the Russians did several times?

Things like speed, style, and whatnot (which I don't really agree with your opinion on either) come under presentation.

How could the technical marks be equal when they performed (technically) equal difficulty performances but one did so flawlessly and one had some slipups?

	13-02-2002 12:04									#45
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While my daughter is no expert... she does skate competitively.
She was laughing at the mistakes the Russians were making, and commenting on how their performance was stiff and not very good. On the other hand, she admits that the Canadians routine was "slightly" easier, she was spell bound by their perfection and grace...

I can only guess that if a 13 year old skater could see it... that a judge probably could too

	13-02-2002 12:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher How could the technical marks be equal when they performed (technically) equal difficulty performances but one did so flawlessly and one had some slipups?

No, speed and angle both come under technical. Both make the routine technically more difficult. If you skate more slowly and standing upright, you will make less mistakes than if you are skating faster and at an angle to the ground. Difficulty is scored in technical.

You may think your team skated all beautiful and stuff, but I was bored by them. I understand the Russian sucked tail pipes fumes, and they scored lower. The Russians were getting all 5.7s and 5.6s while the Canadians got 5.9s and 5.8s. So obviously, something else contributed, which I understand was the short competition. The two are added together, and the sum determines the final score. Apparently the Russians had enough from the previous night to make up for their mistakes.

It looked to me as if the Canadains, seeing the the Russians had blown it, decided to play it safe, and skated very conservatively. They didn't seem like they were trying to win, they seemed like they were trying not to lose. That's just me. I'm not a nationalist or anti-Russian. I didn't see the Russians (I was cooking), I'm not defending them.

	13-02-2002 12:18									#47
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Well... many in the skating world must agree that there is a "problem" since they have launched a big investigation because of the results.

It should be interesting

	13-02-2002 12:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, speed and angle both come under technical. Both make the routine technically more difficult. If you skate more slowly and standing upright, you will make less mistakes than if you are skating faster and at an angle to the ground. Difficulty is scored in technical.

You're right, it is.
But the technical base marks were the same between the two, meaning the judges interpreted the difficulty as the same. What then comes into consideration is how well it's executed.

quote: You may think your team skated all beautiful and stuff, but I was bored by them.

That's why I said opinion.
You think your team (the commies, right? ) skated beautifully, and I agree. But I think one team did so without any faults, one had faults, and that's why one placed higher than the other.

quote: I understand the Russian sucked tail pipes fumes, and they scored lower. The Russians were getting all 5.7s and 5.6s while the Canadians got 5.9s and 5.8s. So obviously, something else contributed, which I understand was the short competition. The two are added together, and the sum determines the final score. Apparently the Russians had enough from the previous night to make up for their mistakes.

What are you talking about?
Have you even looked at the score breakdown?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/705183.asp?pne=msn
The lowest the Russians got was 5.7, lowest Canadians got was 5.8.

But what's odd is, say, the French judge for technical: 5.8 for Canada, 5.8 for Russia.
Same deal with Russia and the Ukraine.

	13-02-2002 12:27									#49
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Oh please stop this pitiful whining, guys. It's your brains that are screwed by NBC commentators and excessive expectations. Let's analyze the situation in a sober way.

Technical merit. The Russians made some mistakes. The Canadians were better here. But this is correctly reflected in the marks!!!

Presentation. The Canadian program was way too simplistic and straightforward. It did not overwhelm like some gold-medal performances did in the past. The Russians skated in a more artistic and refined manner. They surpassed the Canadians in the depth and overal complexity of the performance. Sure, the Canadians made less mistakes in their simplistic program than the Russians did in their more sophisticated one. But this concerns the technical merit, and this was discussed above. As for the presentation, the Russians did it better and rightfully received better marks.

Pleliminary program. Don't forget that there was the first night of skating where the Russians were 1st. This also counts into the final result.

Overall, it was pretty close to a draw. Neither couple was at the height of the great champions of the past. It was like winning a one-hour race by a margin of one second. But this happens in sports. Now this simply happened to your favorites.

Of course, I feel sorry for the Canadian couple. It's a tragedy to lose by so slim margin. I also feel sorry for the Russian couple: they are now haunted by the most powerful propagandistic machine in the world.

As I read today in a Russian newspaper, perhaps all this crusade in the press is designed to help Michele Kwan over Slutskaya. Now that the referees are intimidated, I hope you understand what they will be inclined to do.

	13-02-2002 12:29									#50
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But what about the reported deal between the French and Russian judge. If that is indeed true... which it looks like at this point...

FIX!!!!!!!!!!!

	13-02-2002 12:30									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Technical merit. The Russians made some mistakes. The Canadians were better here. But this is correctly reflected in the marks!!!

Ahem.
If it's correctly reflected in the marks, how come three judges gave the SAME marks to both the Canadians and the Russians in this area, and when one supposedly let the Russians win intentionally?

I'll not argue that the Russians' was more ambitious, but they f*cked up with it in several parts, and that costs you. Sorry.

	13-02-2002 12:38									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ming But what about the reported deal between the French and Russian judge. If that is indeed true... which it looks like at this point... FIX!!!!!!!!!!!

Wouldn't be the first time. The Olympics are about politics. I wonder how they'll prove that.

	13-02-2002 12:57									#53
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poor canadians

	13-02-2002 13:35									#54
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If the French and Russian judges had any private deal, it's sad. But for the time being this is just a speculation. Besides, I don't see how it can be proved in principle, unless the French judge is a covert CIA agent.

quote: Originally posted by Asher Ahem. If it's correctly reflected in the marks, how come three judges gave the SAME marks to both the Canadians and the Russians in this area, and when one supposedly let the Russians win intentionally?

Each individual judge is biased by definition. The overall right mark is supposed to be a result of statistical averaging over all the judges involved.

	13-02-2002 23:22									#55
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Cardinal Rule of Sports: Any competition that involves sequins is definitely NOT a sport.

Artistic merit? Why in the hell is this a criterion in an Olympic event, that is allegedly a sport? If you're judged on artistic merit in this, why not just have a Olympic watercolor competition? One hour to make a pretty picture. Ready... GO!

The only possible good outcome from this would be to banish figure skating from the Olympics. (Along with moguls, halfpipe, freestyle, ski jumping (or just get rid of the "style" scores), gymnastics, diving, synchronized swimming...) Olympic events should be decided by the Olympians, on the field of play; not anonymous judges with various axes to grind, and who answer to essentially no one.

	14-02-2002 02:15									#56
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Vega, it might be easier than that. Costas implied that the French judge admitted to having a deal with the Russians.
But, we'll still wait for the OFFICIAL investigation

What I found most humorous was the on-line poll.
Who do you think won?

With over 200,000 responses (yes I know that it was an extremely unscientific survey with a very biased universe) The results were

CAN. 96% RUS. 4 %

Quite amazing if you consider that if you posted a poll of what you preferred in your milk.

Chocolate or arsenic?
I'm sure you'd get at least 5% that would pick arsenic.


RAH
I knew it was the French. hahahahhahahah

	14-02-2002 03:11									#57
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quote: Slutskaya

And someone has to address my point that the canadian girl is hotter than the russian.

	14-02-2002 03:26									#58
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Wow, that canadian chick was hothothot!
She had kind of funny eyes and in a way looked kind of retarded.. i mean special, but i don't know why i think she even hotter that way!

They skated good, but c'mon.. explaining is for gays.

	14-02-2002 03:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka They skated good, but c'mon.. explaining is for gays.

Another moronic troll... keep it up and you won't be posting here much longer.

	14-02-2002 04:53									#60
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The joke is it would be very easy to overhaul the system, but why break it when its already FIXED.


I see NO reason why a judge should ever even know who the other judges are, let alone discuss anyone in advance. They should sit in separate isolated booths and be prohibited from communicating with each other. There should be separate judges for every event so there is no potential for trading

And the whole notion of Ordinals- complete BS, set up to fix the result- because they can't do the math fast enough to fix it otherwise.

Hell, even picking judges at random out of the audience would give you a far better result, and lead to more entertaining skating.

But it's not news. It WWF. Harding vs Kerrigan, I want a cage match.

Vagablind- its sad when you can't admit the truth, don't you think?