14-02-2002 03:05									#31
	Time to clarify Suffering from ads?

First, who is a Jew according to the traditional definition still used today

There are two ways to be Jewish. The first is to be born to a Jewish mother; the second is to convert. Conversion consists of having three Rabbis certify that you have been ritually bathed and circumcised, that you have learned the principles of Judaism, and are converting out of sincere belief. Generally, they issue a certificate so that you can prove that you are Jewish to whoever might need to know. So I reject Asher's accusation that Jews are somehow trying to create a master race; no one is turned down for conversion on racial grounds. There are people of every race and ethnicity who convert to Judaism, and actually, people in very surprising places who were born Jewish - Tribes of Kurdish Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Jews who've been on the Indian subcontinent for centuries if not millenia, etc.

Now, I'll try to explain to the best of my knowledge the laws of the State of Israel in question.

The main way of becoming an Israeli citizen, if not born in Israel (all born in Israel are citizens) is to be Jewish and immigrate under the Law of Return, a law which allows Jews to come to Israel. The definition of a Jew used for the Law of Return is different from the traditional one though, and includes people with Jewish relatives. Also, there was an Israeli supreme court case which ruled against a born Jew who had converted to Catholicism on the grounds that by converting, he had separated himself from the Jewish people. Converts however, are most certainly allowed in. New immigrants to Israel recieve certain benefits to aid in their integration into society. Help with the rent, free Hebrew lessons, etc. Israel has a rather generous welfare system though, and contrary to Guynemer's assertion, that system serves all of its citizens. In fact, a new law was recently passed with the help of the Arab parties in the Knesset which gave generous benefits to large families, that is, Orthodox Jews and Arabs - the mostly non-Orthodox public was outraged, but the law stands.

Paiktis: My understanding is that the answer is no. If you married a Jewish woman and immigrated with her though, you would be let in.

Imran:

quote: BS! They are American, and I'm glad that they are casting off the false nationality of Judaism to become truly Americans.

I love this country and I'll defend it, but I love it because it gave my ancestors freedom to practice their religion and continues to extend that freedom to me. You seem to want America to be like Czarist Russia, always trying to crush any ethnicity or religion which is not "truly American."

quote: Don't you think that this ethnic seperation and ethnic purity is part (if not a lot) of the reason why Jews have been persecuted throughout the ages? Because they are different and want to be seperate from the rest of the society.

Yet somehow, after so many of those societies have finished, we're still here, still different, but still practicing the same faith. Besides, I don't think you'd like it much if someone told you and your family to give up their Islamic identity because it was un-American and would make them targets of persecution.

quote: I'm actually happy that there will be less Jews. They are taking control of their lives and marrying who they wish and believing in what they wish instead of being brainwashed by a religion and a claim of ethnicity that doesn't exist.

So if you believe in Judaism you're brainwashed but if you believe in anything else, that's just your choice? That seems like a double standard to me. When people talk this way about any religion, I cringe.

	14-02-2002 03:14									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: quote: The number of Jews in the world will fall by 33% by 2050 Thank Jehovah!

Thank you, Jorg Hieder.

Plus, what Natan said.

Most people think that 'this is racist since only jews are allowed in' yet we allow both jews by ethnicity and religion in, and anyone can convert.

Then they say 'it's rediculous that a person having nothing to do with jewish heritage could change his religion and immigrate'. Well it's not that simple. Before you are "certified" as a converted jew you have to prove knowledge of the religion and history, and so on and so forth. This is done to make sure that people who proclaim themselves jews, really mean it, and know what they're talking about.

Judaism today is not only a religion and a semi-ethnicity, but also a nationality, part of which is always Israel and Jerusalem, whether you're a zionist or not.

Most importantly Judaism is heritage, and that's what Jews are trying to preserve.

	14-02-2002 03:18									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Most people think that 'this is racist since only jews are allowed in' yet we allow both jews by ethnicity and religion in, and anyone can convert.

Is it okay for me to make a country for Satan worshippers? Well, first we'd take the land by force and then claim it and only allow people in that worship Satan?

Is it racist? No, not really.
Is it wrong? Yes.
Can we blame the Palestinians? Yes, they shouldn't resort to terrorism. But Israel's no angel either.

quote: Judaism today is not only a religion and a semi-ethnicity, but also a nationality, part of which is always Israel and Jerusalem, whether you're a zionist or not.

Nationality should not be tied to religion.
Separation of church and state.
Hey, it's your country, do what you want. Just don't come crawling to others when people attack you.

quote: Most importantly Judaism is heritage, and that's what Jews are trying to preserve.

What was Hitler trying to do with his SuperRace?

	14-02-2002 03:22									#34
	Re: Time to clarify Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Natan Israel has a rather generous welfare system though, and contrary to Guynemer's assertion, that system serves all of its citizens.

I made no assertion. I was merely quoting Eli: "Btw, this goverment aid for new immigrants exists only in Israel, and only Jews deserve it. So if you got citizenship from some other reason, you'll have to work harder."

And I stand by my judgment.

	14-02-2002 03:23									#35
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Asher Is it okay for me to make a country for Satan worshippers? Well, first we'd take the land by force and then claim it and only allow people in that worship Satan? Is it racist? No, not really. Is it wrong? Yes. Can we blame the Palestinians? Yes, they shouldn't resort to terrorism. But Israel's no angel either.

Why are you turning this into an ME thread?

	14-02-2002 03:28									#36
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Natan Why are you turning this into an ME thread?

It already happened once the Israelis started spewing this "It's okay because we're an ethnic group" crap.

	14-02-2002 03:39									#37
	Re: Re: Time to clarify Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I made no assertion. I was merely quoting Eli: "Btw, this goverment aid for new immigrants exists only in Israel, and only Jews deserve it. So if you got citizenship from some other reason, you'll have to work harder." And I stand by my judgment.

It is quite obvious from what Eli said that the gov't program in question applies only to new immigrants. He's not talking welfare, food stamps, etc. He's talking about unemployment insurance for new immigrants.

Did you purposely misread what he said?

	14-02-2002 04:29									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: axi : (threadjack) does your name mean 'the worthy one' in greek?

No, you are confusing the letter Î "ksi" with the letter X "chi". "a-ks-i-o-s" means the worthy one, but that doesn't have anything to do with my handle. My first name is Achilles (Or "Achilleas" in new Greek or Achillefs" in ancient Greek, the one from the Iliad), which alot of people cut down to "Achi", which is written "AXI" in greek. It's exactly like the Jewish name "Abraham" which you usually reduce to "Avy".

I used this handle in arcade game hiscores, so it was the first thing that sprung to mind when I was registering, after "feanor" which was unfortunately taken, by some SOB who has only made 5 posts in Apolyton.

	14-02-2002 04:41									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Asher Is it okay for me to make a country for Satan worshippers? Well, first we'd take the land by force and then claim it and only allow people in that worship Satan?

If they really want to and there's enough people, then yes, I say give them their own country.

quote: Is it racist? No, not really. Is it wrong? Yes. Can we blame the Palestinians? Yes, they shouldn't resort to terrorism. But Israel's no angel either.

I don't get how did you get palestinians in here.

We're talking about Zionist legitimacy, not Israeli actions etc.

quote: Nationality should not be tied to religion.

Tell that to the northern irish.

quote: Separation of church and state.

Which is your value which you shouldn't force others to share.

quote: Hey, it's your country, do what you want. Just don't come crawling to others when people attack you.

So don't come crying to UN and EU when we crack you open and spill your guts out to teach you not to screw with us.

quote: What was Hitler trying to do with his SuperRace?

The goal was honorable.
The means - destroying every single non arrian and enslaving semi-arians (slavs) was not honorable.

I don't have a problem with people trying to protect and defend their heritage, as long as they don't hurt others.

The conflict here didn't result in Zionist pre-meditated intentions to hurt any one, but rather in a conflict between Zionists plans to live here, and Arab plans to live here alone.

	14-02-2002 04:43									#40
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Asher It already happened once the Israelis started spewing this "It's okay because we're an ethnic group" crap.

1) Jews being an ethnic group has nothing to do with the Palestinian conflict, but rather with the definitions of Judaism and Zionism.

2) It's impolite to say I'm spewing crap, esp. if I do that in a very civilized and rational manner.

	14-02-2002 04:46									#41
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Tell that to the northern irish.

What, you assume I don't?

quote: Which is your value which you shouldn't force others to share.

Which is why I said it's your country,and you can do what you want, but don't be surprised when people get pissed off at you for it.

quote: So don't come crying to UN and EU when we crack you open and spill your guts out to teach you not to screw with us.

quote: The goal was honorable. The means - destroying every single non arrian and enslaving semi-arians (slavs) was not honorable.

Umm...I'm sorry.
Could you repeat that?
Hitler's goal to create a SuperRace was honorable?

quote: I don't have a problem with people trying to protect and defend their heritage, as long as they don't hurt others.

I'm very tempted to slip in a comment here on how Israel was formed and how people were hurt by that, but I'll refrain.

quote: The conflict here didn't result in Zionist pre-meditated intentions to hurt any one, but rather in a conflict between Zionists plans to live here, and Arab plans to live here alone.

Wait.
Arab plans to live there alone?
Aren't you the ones that only let Jews in your country?

	14-02-2002 04:47									#42
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov 1) Jews being an ethnic group has nothing to do with the Palestinian conflict, but rather with the definitions of Judaism and Zionism.

Right, that's absolutely right.

quote: 2) It's impolite to say I'm spewing crap, esp. if I do that in a very civilized and rational manner.

Civilized and rational? You just said Hitler's goal of a Master Race was "honorable".

	14-02-2002 05:10									#43
	Re: Re: Re: Time to clarify Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT It is quite obvious from what Eli said that the gov't program in question applies only to new immigrants. He's not talking welfare, food stamps, etc. He's talking about unemployment insurance for new immigrants. Did you purposely misread what he said?

What Eli said was that only Jews deserve that aid. I think I read that exactly the way it was written.

	14-02-2002 06:03									#44
	Eli, you completely butchered this Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What the survey reffered to in the opening of the topic actually said was that there are 13.3 million Jews in the world today, and that in 2050, there will probably be between 12 and 18 million Jews in the world. So "Number of Jews in the world will increase by 33% by 2050" would have been more accurate.

	14-02-2002 06:04									#45
	Re: Eli, you completely butchered this Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Natan What the survey reffered to in the opening of the topic actually said was that there are 13.3 million Jews in the world today, and that in 2050, there will probably be between 12 and 18 million Jews in the world. So "Number of Jews in the world will increase by 33% by 2050" would have been more accurate.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I was thinking that what he said was pretty screwy

ha ha ha ha ha hah ahahahaha ha ha ha

Jon Miller

	14-02-2002 06:06									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I can understand Eli's concern. The Jews have survived nearly 2000 years of diaspora. During this same time period countless other ethnic groups have quietly slid into oblivion. It would be a shame to see Judaism quietly die out in the next century.

Evidently you guys haven't quite grasped what's going on. Jews aren't disappearing in Israel, their numbers are declining outside of Israel. The idea of maternal inheritence doesn't matter. If a young Jewish person of either sex strongly desired to ensure that his kids would be raised Jewish then he or she would take the steps necessary to secure this goal, i.e., either marry within the religion or seek someone willing to convert or at least let the kids be raised in the religion. In the US many young Jews just don't see the point anymore. In fact, some are becoming disillusioned by what has been going on in Israel.

	14-02-2002 06:16									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher Is it okay for me to make a country for Satan worshippers? Well, first we'd take the land by force and then claim it and only allow people in that worship Satan?

Your strategy is superb, massster. When do we start?

	14-02-2002 06:27									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: What was Hitler trying to do with his SuperRace? The goal was honorable. The means - destroying every single non arrian and enslaving semi-arians (slavs) was not honorable. I don't have a problem with people trying to protect and defend their heritage, as long as they don't hurt others.

His goal -an ethnically pure German state of a few hundred millions- was not achievable without hurting others.

My conviction deepens that Zionists are the Jewish version of the Aryan Nations.

quote: The conflict here didn't result in Zionist pre-meditated intentions to hurt any one, but rather in a conflict between Zionists plans to live here, and Arab plans to live here alone.

Perhaps they didn´t want to live as a minority in their own land under a statehood created for a different culture and religion?

	14-02-2002 06:34									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

Zionism = Racism

	14-02-2002 06:45									#50
	You will all be assimiliated. Your likenesses will be added to our own. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: They can all be atheists as far as i'm concerned, as long as they remember that they are the people of Israel and their connection to the land of Israel.

I've always found this racial purity rhetoric somewhat disturbing. Religion, I can understand, even if I strongly disagree with it, but ethnicity...

After all, people with the same religion share traditions and beliefs with each other. All people with the same ethnicity share is a neglibly less distant common ancestry than usual. Why bother with such a trivial distinction?

	14-02-2002 06:54									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You're such a Jew.

	14-02-2002 07:02									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ramo I've always found this racial purity rhetoric somewhat disturbing. Religion, I can understand, even if I strongly disagree with it, but ethnicity...

Ethnicity is not the same as race.

[QUOTE]
After all, people with the same religion share traditions and beliefs with each other. All people with the same ethnicity share is a neglibly less distant common ancestry than usual. Why bother with such a trivial distinction? [/
QUOTE]
Beats me. I know that the Israeli-apolytoners are going to hate me for saying this, but I've always found secular Zionism to be far less compelling than even Neture Karta Judaism.

Comrade Tribune: Right, they wanted the Jews to be a minority in their own land in a state created for a different culture and religion. People like to have their own country. It's called nationalism. You may have heard of it.


But really, I don't like this trend of every thread about Jews turning into a thread about Israel.

	14-02-2002 07:14									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Ethnicity is not the same as race.

IMO, the two concepts are similar enough and ambiguous enough to be used interchangably.

	14-02-2002 07:31									#54
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Natan It's called nationalism. You may have heard of it.

Ehhh, yes. But I have also heard that Jews have often become victims of nationalism; so I wouldn´t have expected them to be extremely fond of the concept.

	14-02-2002 07:36									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Ehhh, yes. But I have also heard that Jews have often become victims of nationalism; so I wouldn´t have expected them to be extremely fond of the concept.

I've heard that Jews have often become victims of religion, so I wouldn't have expected them to be extremely fond of the concept. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water here.

	14-02-2002 07:39									#56
	Re: You will all be assimiliated. Your likenesses will be added to our own. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ramo I've always found this racial purity rhetoric somewhat disturbing. Religion, I can understand, even if I strongly disagree with it, but ethnicity... After all, people with the same religion share traditions and beliefs with each other. All people with the same ethnicity share is a neglibly less distant common ancestry than usual. Why bother with such a trivial distinction?

It's not about purity necessarily; if I were a "pure" Jew, I wouldn't have blond hair and blue eyes. Yet I still feel a common link with most other Jews, and a connection to the land of Israel. It's about assimilation; not necessarily intermarriage.

	14-02-2002 08:19									#57
	Prosperity Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The number of Jews outside of israel will be decided by the number of people who think they are Jewish- many of those childredn of 'mixed' marriages , even the ones with just a Jewish father, will think of themselves as Jewish, while many of the ones that will 'techinically' apply as Jewish might not care to retain the Jewish identity. Overall, I think the percentage of Jews in the US will decline, but the actual numbers will creep up. Something not mentioned is that, since most sectors of the diaspora are relatively prosperous, they are seeing the drop in birthrates all prosperous, well-educated populations see, the same for the Israeli middle class (Japan, for example, will see an actual pop. decline over the next 50 years without immigration). In israel itself, the two fastest growing sectors will be the Orthodox Jews and the Arabs. This means that the current character of Israel will see significat pressure as more of the population is either not jewish at all (Arab) or not secular, like the oriiginal Zionists, but orthodox.

	14-02-2002 08:36									#58
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If you love someone, in my opinion, you should go ahead and get with that person-- you don't owe that much to socierty that you should be forced to pick a certain mate for it.

	14-02-2002 10:16									#59
	Re: Eli, you completely butchered this Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Natan What the survey reffered to in the opening of the topic actually said was that there are 13.3 million Jews in the world today, and that in 2050, there will probably be between 12 and 18 million Jews in the world. So "Number of Jews in the world will increase by 33% by 2050" would have been more accurate.

**ding, ding** Has anyone else noticed this besides Jon? The point of this whole thread has been made moot by an error in translation (or something along those lines). Anyway, I still bet the Palestinians are multiplying faster than the Jewish folks.

I see it is too late, though. A new, mutated, ME thread has emerged from the burning rubble of the original topic.

CYBERAmazon

	14-02-2002 14:57									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: What was Hitler trying to do with his SuperRace? The goal was honorable.

...and they have the cheek to compare me with Haider!

If you believe in restricting who people are allowed to marry based on ethnicity or religion, then you are an evil bastard who I will fight 'til my dieing breath.....