24-02-2002 02:32									#241
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Willem,

Under a Democracy, one of the underlying principals is Freedom of Religion. There is no such thing as separation of church and state (at least not in the US Constitution).

And if cathedrals didn't generate any happiness/culture under a Democracy, why are there so many of them in the US? Or synagogues, or mosques?

However, that's beside the point.

Don't you think the Colosseum in Rome still generates a bit of culture? There have always been Cathedrals in the former Soviet Union. The reason they weren't taken down was that they were important to the culture and they helped keep the people happy.

	24-02-2002 02:52									#242
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by ProfEclipse Willem, Under a Democracy, one of the underlying principals is Freedom of Religion. There is no such thing as separation of church and state (at least not in the US Constitution). And if cathedrals didn't generate any happiness/culture under a Democracy, why are there so many of them in the US? Or synagogues, or mosques? However, that's beside the point. Don't you think the Colosseum in Rome still generates a bit of culture? There have always been Cathedrals in the former Soviet Union. The reason they weren't taken down was that they were important to the culture and they helped keep the people happy.

Compare today's Democracies with, say, the English monarchy 200 years ago. How many people go to church every Sunday now as opposed to then? Does the decline in church attendance imply that people today are less happy with their government than they were then? So why should a Cathedral always remain the symbol of a civ's level of happiness forever and forever?

With every change in government form, people have different expectations as to whether their leaders are doing a good job or not. And with the advent of Democracy, religious matters are of very little concern when it comes to establishing government policy. Do you think that if the US government were to suddenly start building Cathedrals all over the place, that the people would be any happier? Would that bring people flocking to church every Sunday? Or would making their elected representatives, and a having voice in the policy making do a better job? Shouldn't the game also reflect those changing aspirations?

	24-02-2002 03:30									#243
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's not the governments that build the Cathedrals. It's the people. We're talking about civilizations, not just governments. Governmental policies certainly have an impact on a civilization's growth, happiness, etc.. But people are still made happy when exercising their freedoms. In Civ, a Cathedral makes some people happy. This would be true no matter the form of government.

	24-02-2002 06:12									#244
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by ProfEclipse It's not the governments that build the Cathedrals. It's the people. We're talking about civilizations, not just governments. Governmental policies certainly have an impact on a civilization's growth, happiness, etc.. But people are still made happy when exercising their freedoms. In Civ, a Cathedral makes some people happy. This would be true no matter the form of government.

Well I'm getting tired of carrying on about this, and quite obviously you fail to see my point. So I guess I just won't ask you to play my mod when it's done. Fair enough? This is supposed to be a thread about bug reports after all.

	24-02-2002 10:19									#245
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Willem Well I'm getting tired of carrying on about this, and quite obviously you fail to see my point. So I guess I just won't ask you to play my mod when it's done. Fair enough? This is supposed to be a thread about bug reports after all.

No, I see your point. I simply disagree. But you're right, this isn't the place to continue this discussion.

Oh, and don't count me out with regards to your mod. I may not agree with you on this point, but that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't enjoy playing out your ideas.

Cheers!

	24-02-2002 10:32									#246
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ProfEclipse No, I see your point. I simply disagree. But you're right, this isn't the place to continue this discussion. Oh, and don't count me out with regards to your mod. I may not agree with you on this point, but that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't enjoy playing out your ideas. Cheers!

The bottom line is I can only work with the tools I have available to me right now. And this approach is the best I can come up with at the moment. Hopefully in the future I'll be able to multi select for various gov buildings, but right now I can't. So I have to make a compromise that at least has a certain logic to it.

	24-02-2002 16:23									#247
	Tired of ads?

I have found what I believe is a bug. The civilopedia talks about Draft Rate while the editor says Draft Limit. The latter is a better term, and I think you (Firaxis) should change it.
I've already changed the term in my civilopedia, if someone comes up with that solution.

	24-02-2002 18:45									#248
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: when it says contact, did it specify an embassy? it sounds more like if you have encountered both civs, even if you don't have an embassy with either of them that you can see if they are at war or not

The readme file, under "Changes v1.16", used the word "contact". It doesn't elaborate. I thought the term "contact" meant just that . . . contact . . . no embassy or any other additions.

Under 1.16, I could see the relationship lines between two civs when I had contact with both civs. Under 1.17, I MUST have an embassy with a civ to see whom it is at war with.

I really don't see this as a serious problem. In fact, I kind of like the idea of requiring an embassy to see the lines, except in cases of war. I think war relationship lines should always be visible as long as you have contact with both civs. I brought all this up mainly because there was no mention of any changes in the relationship lines in the readme file for 1.17.

	24-02-2002 19:54									#249
	Re: Finally! My new computer has arrived and I can play! :) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah (1) The Load/Save game window is not wide enough to see the full filenames Edit: the scroll bar hides the last part of the filename (the date). Going to a subdirectory and coming back sometimes gives a better view with names filling two rows. (2) The advisor keeps suggesting to build a Spearmen while I can make the better Bowmen at the same cost. Edit: Now that I finally connected my empire to my only and faraway source of Iron, the advisor suggests ... "Shall we make a Bowman?" (3) When the Golden Age is about to end, the city map shows no GA effect on the map but the GA effects are erroneously still shown on the city info below the city map and on the Domestic Advisor's city list (4) There should be a warning by the Domestic Advisor when the Golden Age is about to end, instead of or in addition to the message when it has ended (5) There should be a warning when a city is about to go into civil disorder and the option of going to the city screen to prevent this from happening (6) When a city is about to grow in size, the new shields are already applied while income and food aren't. The extra shields shouldn't either IMHO. Btw most of the time the game applies the square with maximum number of shields, but not always (7) With the new patch, none if the AI tribes is willing to pay gold per turn anymore, not even $1 when they would pay a lump sum of well over $20, and not even for all my possessions ("What may I trade?" "I don't think any such deal is possible") (8) Scientific tribes don't get to hear anything about entering a new age Edit: last time the Babylonians did though, maybe this was a 1.16 thing (9) The name of the Iroquois war chief is Skenandoah ("white man's friend"), not Shenandoah ("daughter of the moon"). Come on! This is like having Washwoman leading the American army (10) Despite being a Republic, my cities still celebrate "We love the King day"

(11) The number of turns needed in the tech tree is not visible for advances with short names
(12) Clearing a forest square doesn't always yield 10 shields. It makes no difference whether the square is being worked or not at the time
Edit: if this is as intended, we should get a message beforehand whether or not clearing a forest will yield shields, or it should show on the map
(13) If a forest square within the radius of several cities is cleared, IMHO the 10 shields should go to (a) the city working the square, if none (b) the largest city, in case of a tie (c) the oldest city. As it is it seems more or less random
(14) On occasion some (faraway) uncharted terrain suddenly registers as charted. This seems linked to Barbarian activity. If an AI unit enters the terrain, contact with the AI tribe becomes possible
(15) When a religeous tribe revolts to a new government upon making the discovery, cities may go into civil disorder despite sufficient happiness under both the old and the new government. Looks like the happiness during anarchy is counted by mistake

	25-02-2002 03:42									#250
	Re: Re: Finally! My new computer has arrived and I can play! :) Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah (12) Clearing a forest square doesn't always yield 10 shields. It makes no difference whether the square is being worked or not at the time

Only natural forests yield shields. Natural forests are those that appear on the map at the beginning of the game. If the forest was planted, it doesn't yield shields when it is cleared.

	25-02-2002 04:45									#251
	Planted forests and espionage menu Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by star mouse Only natural forests yield shields. Natural forests are those that appear on the map at the beginning of the game. If the forest was planted, it doesn't yield shields when it is cleared.

It has been my experience that a planted forest will give shields. It only works once per square however. You cannot replant and then clear. Once per square is all you get.

Something i have not seen mentioned:

If an AI civ has too many cities, you cannot read the names of all the cities on the espionage menu. The box is too wide, not completely fitting on the screen and there is no scroll bar. Anyone else?

	25-02-2002 05:13									#252
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: If an AI civ has too many cities, you cannot read the names of all the cities on the espionage menu. The box is too wide, not completely fitting on the screen and there is no scroll bar. Anyone else?

yep, i've seen that one too. quite irritating. the box will get wider and wider, but never taller.

	25-02-2002 05:24									#253
	accelerated research boost in one turn Got spare money?

Beginning by mid- Middle ages in my actual first 1.17f game, I noticed a research completion bug I never saw before: whatever my economy settings ( 8-2-0, 7-3-0, 6-4-0,....., 2-8-0, etc...) I get each tech every 4-6 turns even if initially it takes more than 15, 20 turns. Sometimes after 4-5 turns, the required number of turns drops drastically from 10+ turns to a single turn ( within next turn ) and I get the "boosted" tech...the AI has the same bonus I've never saw pre-1.17. In fact I can't take the tech lead in the same Monarch conditions since the AI gets the techs every 4-5 turns, and it seems to me that the turns counter is bugged.

	25-02-2002 05:32									#254
	Re: accelerated research boost in one turn Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus Beginning by mid- Middle ages in my actual first 1.17f game, I noticed a research completion bug I never saw before: whatever my economy settings ( 8-2-0, 7-3-0, 6-4-0,....., 2-8-0, etc...) I get each tech every 4-6 turns even if initially it takes more than 15, 20 turns. Sometimes after 4-5 turns, the required number of turns drops drastically from 10+ turns to a single turn ( within next turn ) and I get the "boosted" tech...the AI has the same bonus I've never saw pre-1.17. In fact I can't take the tech lead in the same Monarch conditions since the AI gets the techs every 4-5 turns, and it seems to me that the turns counter is bugged.

That's not a bug.
That's a feature.
It existed before 1.17

Anytime new civ discovers same tech, tech become cheaper for other civs.
So if one civ trade tech with several others in same turn, then you'll need a much less time to research that tech.

Or you could buy it much cheaper? (quick discovery rate ==> cheap tech)

	25-02-2002 05:56									#255
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by pauli one i just noticed: i'm talking to the egyptians (i had some troops in their territory exploring). i clicked through what my foreign advisor had to say, and something extremely odd came up: thing is... she did nothing of the sort. they seemed to get along fine, right up to the point where i exterminated the greeks. doesn't seem quite right. i'd say it's a frivolous bug, except that i strongly suspect such erronious logic is being used by the ai as well - which almost certainly screws up relations between civs.

This just means she broke a treaty at some earlier point in the game w/ them.

	25-02-2002 06:18									#256
	Re: accelerated research boost in one turn Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus Beginning by mid- Middle ages in my actual first 1.17f game, I noticed a research completion bug I never saw before: whatever my economy settings ( 8-2-0, 7-3-0, 6-4-0,....., 2-8-0, etc...) I get each tech every 4-6 turns even if initially it takes more than 15, 20 turns. Sometimes after 4-5 turns, the required number of turns drops drastically from 10+ turns to a single turn ( within next turn ) and I get the "boosted" tech...the AI has the same bonus I've never saw pre-1.17. In fact I can't take the tech lead in the same Monarch conditions since the AI gets the techs every 4-5 turns, and it seems to me that the turns counter is bugged.

It has always done that. You just haven't noticed it before because now the damn AI trades techs like crazy and there is no way to stay ahead.

	25-02-2002 06:48									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: This just means she broke a treaty at some earlier point in the game w/ them.

i don't believe she did. they got along great, and had a right of passage agreement from as soon as it was possible, up to the point where i finished my genocidal rampage. as far as i know they were never at war; their empires did not border one another (first the romans were in between, then i was (once i killed the romans)). they might possibly have been trading resources, but i don't think they were. i never saw an "active trade" line between them (and yes, i had embassies from as early on as possible).

	25-02-2002 07:17									#258
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by pauli i don't believe she did. they got along great, and had a right of passage agreement from as soon as it was possible, up to the point where i finished my genocidal rampage. as far as i know they were never at war; their empires did not border one another (first the romans were in between, then i was (once i killed the romans)). they might possibly have been trading resources, but i don't think they were. i never saw an "active trade" line between them (and yes, i had embassies from as early on as possible).

A common reason for this is if they had an alliance at some point and she made peace before the 20 turns was up. Some treaty or other was broken or you wouldn't get that msg.

What cracks me up, is after you wipe someone out, they get refered to as your friend.

	25-02-2002 07:31									#259
	Re: Re: accelerated research boost in one turn Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by watorrey It has always done that. You just haven't noticed it before because now the damn AI trades techs like crazy and there is no way to stay ahead.

Yeah I admit, but that doesn't explain the several turns remaining boosted into one ( the number next to the tech in the lower right corner of the screen ) : some kind of cheat to compensate the now faster than light AI research???

	25-02-2002 08:00									#260
	Re: Re: Re: accelerated research boost in one turn Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus Yeah I admit, but that doesn't explain the several turns remaining boosted into one ( the number next to the tech in the lower right corner of the screen ) : some kind of cheat to compensate the now faster than light AI research???

Not a cheat. The total cost for the tach is reduced proportionally by how many known civs have it. Assume 8 civs. So if it was going to take 8 turns, you have 4 left and all of a sudden 4 civs get it (which is likely now), it is half price and you already researched half of it. So... you get it next turn.

	25-02-2002 08:29									#261
	Support Apolyton

quote: A common reason for this is if they had an alliance at some point and she made peace before the 20 turns was up. Some treaty or other was broken or you wouldn't get that msg.

thing is, there have only been two wars in my entire game - me vs the romans, and me vs the greeks. there was nobody to have an alliance against (no, they didn't have an alliance against me)!

quote: What cracks me up, is after you wipe someone out, they get refered to as your friend.

yeah... that's the other part about it that's so weird.

	25-02-2002 14:14									#262
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Civ3 feels more completed with the latest patch. Only minor thing left that has been reported in this thread.

Does anyone know why the AI doesn't upgrade units? It's funny to see all those warriors running around at year 1950. Panzer meat!

	25-02-2002 18:11									#263
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Not a biggie, but still: Shift-A workers and their preference for pollution clean-up.

Great, but maybe a bit too much. When you have large cities that aren't fully developped with roads/railroads, and pollution appears on an unconnected tile, you have huge numbers of workers trying to get there. I had 34 workers walking to a pollution tile (2 tiles away from next road), and then another 13 on the next turn, while those 34 had arrived and were getting ready for an overkill insta cleanup

	25-02-2002 21:38									#264
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Does anyone know why the AI doesn't upgrade units? It's funny to see all those warriors running around at year 1950. Panzer meat!

somebody did the math, and the particularly when the computer doesn't get the workshop, it's often better off without upgrading. cannon fodder provides cover for a counter attack... and 70gold to upgrade from a warrior to infantry (or however much it is) is the equivalent of 70 turns of free support.

	25-02-2002 23:02									#265
	Next turn crashes game Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

For no obvious reason, this mod crashes if you hit y for the one remaining unit to move, and the game proceeds to the next turn.

Also, all my mods crash early on in the game if I alter the colors/unique colors of the civs at all.

Edit: Note -- this mod doesn't change the colors, and in fact this turn is very late in the game ... in the late 19xx's.

Edit: I'd also love to be able to set the start date, stop date, and years/turn pattern on a mod.

Attachment: persia.zip
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Last edited by surt on 26-02-2002 at 03:51

	25-02-2002 23:57									#266
	Re: Next turn crashes game Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by surt For no obvious reason, this mod crashes if you hit y for the one remaining unit to move, and the game proceeds to the next turn. Also, all my mods crash early on in the game if I alter the colors/unique colors of the civs at all.

There's been a problem for awhile now regarding changing the colours. It's not an advisable thing to do at this moment.

	26-02-2002 04:35									#267
	bug or feature? Inflate your Upload Space

i whipped a settler from a city I was exploiting the whip in and it transferred the unhappyness to the next nearest city(my capital do'h) after the temporary city was disbanded

	26-02-2002 04:43									#268
	Re: bug or feature? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Whoha i whipped a settler from a city I was exploiting the whip in and it transferred the unhappyness to the next nearest city(my capital do'h) after the temporary city was disbanded

Someone from Firaxis confirmed that it's a feature.

	26-02-2002 09:11									#269
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

well, guess im not going to be able to disband my temporary cities.

	26-02-2002 19:29									#270
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A few things have had me pounding my fists on the desk in frustration since i started playing civ3, unlikely combat results is one. For this case I didnt though, it's that unbelievably ridiculous, and consistent, that it's obvious it's a bug.

An army with 3 cossacks 13/14 attacking a CONSCRIPT rifleman in the iroquois capital. The first point of damage is usually made in the first 2 strikes, but then the army is defeated entirely, at which point the rifleman becomes Regular (and is then defeatable). Check out the save yourself, load, end turn, select army in stack outside city and attack. I did this at least 6 times in a row. IIRC I'd already defeated a number of conscripts with the other cossacks in the stack, suggesting it could be an army problem ?

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