18-02-2002 05:18									#61
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I expect free lunch you know. Being the Island crazed hermit and all.

It's tradition you have to feed the crazy hermit or you risk evoking the wrath of the Gods of the Island.

	18-02-2002 05:18									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Who needs a stinking GOVERNMENT to survive when there are abundant resourses... *don't people even bother reading the first post*

What about to protect the weak from the strong? After all, government's aren't simply about economic distribution. Though I agree that this aspect of the scenario does make it easier to form a commune.

	18-02-2002 05:18									#63
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quote: Originally posted by orange Once again, I see it the other way around. Starting as a commune with a simple organization of who will work on what (food gathering, shelter building, hunting, etc.) and capitalism and factional differences would/could develop slowly or abruptly based on how we continued to organize ourselves.

But, before anyone did anything, it would have been libertarian. Then within hours it would have turned Commie.

	18-02-2002 05:20									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit But, before anyone did anything, it would have been libertarian. Then within hours it would have turned Commie.

Ok, yes I see what you're saying. However, in regard to time, 'starting off' communist to me is within the first few days/weeks. After all, we're all going to be here for a very, very long time For the first few hours/days it would be anarchy...but a tame one due to the circumstances.

	18-02-2002 05:20									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Who needs a stinking GOVERNMENT to survive when there are abundant resourses... *don't people even bother reading the first post*

Just because resources are abundant doesn't mean they are easily obtainable. Our waters could be overflowing with fish, but without the means to get them, they may as well not exist. We'd also need to establish certain rules, like a common area for waste, so we don't end up leaving garbage and excrement everywhere and reducing the health of everyone.

	18-02-2002 05:20									#66
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That's not Libertarianism; that's anarchism.

	18-02-2002 05:21									#67
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I expect free lunch you know. Being the Island crazed hermit and all.

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Unless we are eating barbecued Paiktis

	18-02-2002 05:23									#68
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for example Ming - what would we do if someone tried to gain a monopoly on force? IE: A group was secretly planning to create a large amount of weapons like sharpened sticks, slingshots, etc. to run the island as they saw fit. What would be the precedure to stop this without government? If you would say "every man for himself" (meaning, everyone should build their own weapons and form their own mutual protection pacts) than the system will collapse and become groups of tribes who fear each other and can't accomplish much.

	18-02-2002 05:26									#69
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I expect free lunch you know.

He who does not work, neither shall he eat.

	18-02-2002 05:26									#70
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quote: Originally posted by orange for example Ming - what would we do if someone tried to gain a monopoly on force? IE: A group was secretly planning to create a large amount of weapons like sharpened sticks, slingshots, etc. to run the island as they saw fit.

Sounds like a government to me... as I said, we don't need no stinking government.

	18-02-2002 05:27									#71
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He who does not work, neither shall he eat.

That's not very Communist. "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" and all that. And we all know that Patkis has no abilities .

	18-02-2002 05:27									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison There's no such thing as a free lunch. Unless we are eating barbecued Paiktis

woe to you oh foolish settlers if you allow yourselves to be dragged to the abysmal chasm of morality that canibalism constitutes. Not only shalt the wrath of the Gods of the Island be dire but you'll need a soda as well and none will be forthcoming.

	18-02-2002 05:28									#73
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quote: He who does not work, neither shall he eat.

But he does work: he tells amusing stories and lets children laugh at his hairyness and Greekness...

	18-02-2002 05:29									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit That's not very Communist. "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" and all that. And we all know that Patkis has no abilities .

This is survival comunism, not advanced communism. Two different types of societies.

	18-02-2002 05:30									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat But he does work: he tells amusing stories and lets children laugh at his hairyness and Greekness...

What children? All the women will have died from exhuastion long before there are any children.

	18-02-2002 05:30									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is survival comunism, not advanced communism. Two different types of societies.

OK. Good, 'cause I wouldn't want advanced communism. "The workers control the coconut tree".

	18-02-2002 05:32									#77
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Hunting would need to be a communal activity, to prevent a small group of hunters from siezing control.

	18-02-2002 05:32									#78
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I agree, he who does not work does not eat. He who cannot work will eat.

Would we be industrious? Would we build advanced shelters and great structures?

	18-02-2002 05:33									#79
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The great pyramid of Ming!


We need the graneries.

	18-02-2002 05:35									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What children? All the women will have died from exhuastion long before there are any children.

I could name at least 3 children in the OT. But I won't.

Paikis can keep the adults amused too.

	18-02-2002 05:36									#81
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hehe, seriously!

Here's a scenario.....the theists want to build a great chapel to worship God. However, the athiests believe that this is a waste of time and slows down the work that needs to be done. How would such a conflict be resolved?

	18-02-2002 05:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by orange hehe, seriously! Here's a scenario.....the theists want to build a great chapel to worship God. However, the athiests believe that this is a waste of time and slows down the work that needs to be done. How would such a conflict be resolved?

A debate followed by a vote.

No, wait, might as well build the chapel in the time when we'd otherwise be debating/voting.

	18-02-2002 05:38									#83
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They can work on it on their own time, after their communal duties are finished. We should be free to allow the free expression of worship, as long as it doesn't endanger the survival of the rest of us.

	18-02-2002 05:40									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit A debate followed by a vote. No, wait, might as well build the chapel in the time when we'd otherwise be debating/voting.

Well, if we vote and the athiests win, might the thiests claim that their freedom of religion and basic rights to chose work are being restrained? Might they seek an alternative form of government (IE: Direct Democracy - not always good) or might this split the society into factions?

	18-02-2002 05:42									#85
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quote: Originally posted by orange Well, if we vote and the athiests win, might the thiests claim that their freedom of religion and basic rights to chose work are being restrained? Might they seek an alternative form of government (IE: Direct Democracy - not always good) or might this split the society into factions?

Their freedom of religion isn't being treatened, they're allowed to believe in wahtever they want. And they could build the chapel in their spare time. But no point in spending our time building it.

	18-02-2002 05:43									#86
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We could set aside a part of the common hall for them to use for worship when it isn't being used for other purposes.

	18-02-2002 05:44									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Their freedom of religion isn't being treatened, they're allowed to believe in wahtever they want. And they could build the chapel in their spare time. But no point in spending our time building it.

Well of course you could say that if you're on the athiest side of the debate...but if you're a theist you might feel the other way.

I like Chegitz's idea.

	18-02-2002 05:46									#88
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In survival situations, it's important to minimize conflict, and the easiest course of action is to let them do their own thing, provided it doesn't impinge upon the group's survival.

	18-02-2002 05:48									#89
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quote: Originally posted by orange Well of course you could say that if you're on the athiest side of the debate...but if you're a theist you might feel the other way. I like Chegitz's idea.

The common hall one? Yes.

But we don't have to cater to their religious beliefs. they are free to have whatever religion they want, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily entitled to have all of us build them a chapel, or even set aside a special space. We do have to give them time to pray, or it would be tantamount to prohibiting prayer.

See what you've made us done! We could have been building a chapel!


And you should all read Tunnel in the Sky by Robert Heinlein.

	18-02-2002 05:48									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Who needs a stinking GOVERNMENT to survive when there are abundant resourses... *don't people even bother reading the first post*

umm

there is deffinitely a shortage

that is in the women department

also, is it resources that people who are not outdoorsy know how to use (I would know some things (I go mountain climbing) but I am not a survivlist)

Jon Miller