03-03-2002 01:18									#91
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I think we should compose Siro- and Eli-bots that respond automatically to any criticism of Israel.

I feel like a siro bot as well.

I'm tired of reminding people that intention counts.

I'm tired of reminding people that palestinains have ammo and trained troops as well.

I'm tired of doing what CNN should be doing, but isn't, since it's a ****ing politicized pretty face parade.

	03-03-2002 01:19									#92
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Damn it Israel the US didn't provide those F-16s for nothing... put them to use.

I am disgusted to see violence. I see the same thing happen in my country, but at a very small scale compared to Israel and Palestine... over 800 people have been killed since 1968 in Spain. Usually, I propose strong police action... we got the exact same problems... car bombings and shootings.

	03-03-2002 01:20									#93
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius 1. If you think that shoot my arguments down. 2. I was "out of town" for few years. Anyway used to come to markos' site get scenarios and info for civ2. My memory is not so good but, I remember apolyton when it was really small.

No one said the fact you're a newbie shoots your arguements down.

But the level of your arguements lead us to the observation that you're a newbie, since they are based on a very primitive and "objectivist" understanding of things.

	03-03-2002 01:22									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What part of this are you not understanding!

If Laurentius is allowed to rejoice when innocent people die, I think I'm entitled to call him evil.

	03-03-2002 01:22									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What part of this are you not understanding!

.... Ming , I don't think that

quote: So you sir, are a bigot and an evil man, from where I stand.

is a flame . on any scale whatsoever....

"evil man"..... .... that's funny... reminds me of some cartoon I saw once , though I can't point out exactly which one. ...

	03-03-2002 01:24									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov If Laurentius is allowed to rejoice when innocent people die, I think I'm entitled to call him evil.

Two wrongs don't make a right!

If you all want to trade insults... fine... but do it somewhere else.

	03-03-2002 01:24									#97
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I said I was saddened by the fact that I rejoyce every israelian soldier getting killed. I admit that I'm not an expert in ME political history eg. but I can have my say and if you know better you can correct my mistake instead of calling me biggot and an idiot. Are those bad names the facts and arguments you base you discussion to? Um, You dont seem to be able to talk about politics and behave properly at the same time.

	03-03-2002 01:26									#98
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I said I was saddened by the fact that I rejoyce every israelian soldier getting killed.

Then why the heck did you say it?

quote: I admit that I'm not an expert in ME political history eg. but I can have my say and if you know better you can correct my mistake instead of calling me biggot and an idiot. Are those bad names the facts and arguments you base you discussion to? Um, You dont seem to be able to talk about politics and behave properly at the same time.

So celebrating deaths is an discussion?

	03-03-2002 01:27									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov If Laurentius is allowed to rejoice when innocent people die, I think I'm entitled to call him evil.

Look, I dont want to trade insults with you as I havent done so far. Soldiers are never innocent

	03-03-2002 01:32									#100
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I can't do it anymore.

I'm tired of people who think that watching CNN is all there is to know about something.

I'm tired of people who think that only the result matters. I hate to see that more and more people forget that intent is the matter.

I'm tired of people who prefer to be "objectivist" over objective.

And I'm tired of people who think that they have the right to rejoice if someone innocent dies.

I can comprehend "content" when some one really evil dies. Even happiness if he hurt you. But not rejoicing over innocent civilians.

People who rejoice over dead palestinians or afghanis, are as evil as those who rejoice over dead americans or israelis.

I can't comprehend how can people sit on their bumms, and judge a conflict from the other side of the earth, without really knowing all the details.

	03-03-2002 01:34									#101
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quote: I said I was saddened by the fact that I rejoyce every israelian soldier getting killed

no no no....

you said:

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Nowadays I have been starting to rejoyce every israelian casuality especially if it's a soldier Shame on you people of israel! you are a disgrace to the rest of us.

that means that you are happy when people that are innocent , and going by the street , shop , eat , work , are butchered for nothing. Soldiers are a cause for a real grand fiesta , but every dead jewish israeli call for a can of beer right ? RIGHT ?


now what does that make you.... huh?

	03-03-2002 01:37									#102
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Siro , do like me . quit. play some Empire Earth . Get drunk . Fail classes ... ermm... nevermind , I guess not all my ideas are good ... :shy:

	03-03-2002 01:38									#103
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I said I was saddened by the fact that I rejoyce every israelian soldier getting killed.

You said you rejoice every Israeli getting killed and soldiers too.

quote: I admit that I'm not an expert in ME political history eg. but I can have my say and if you know better you can correct my mistake instead of calling me biggot and an idiot.

Gee, so nice of you to pretend being an innocent and poor spectator.

If you bother to look back at the thread, you'll see that I've answered each and every of your claims, while you ignored it continued to spout CNN level propoganda.

quote: Are those bad names the facts and arguments you base you discussion to?

That's nice. You're blind too.

I ask you to reread those two dozen posts of mine prior to when you enraged me.

quote: Um, You dont seem to be able to talk about politics and behave properly at the same time.

Hmm, again hypocritism.

You ignore almost everything I've said.
You post smilies when I reply to your claims.
You say how you are happy when Israelis die, whether they are soldiers or not.

And then you're suprised I'm pissed off?

	03-03-2002 01:40									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti no no no.... you said:bla bla bla that means that you are happy when people that are innocent , and going by the street , shop , eat , work , are butchered for nothing. Soldiers are a cause for a real grand fiesta , but every dead jewish israeli call for a can of beer right ? RIGHT ? now what does that make you.... huh?

Nice try dalgetti, colour my statement even more and you'll paint me as Saddam Husseins right hand.

For Siro: I had my CNN subscription canceled after I got sick by their news coverage. So I agree with you that CNN is not so good source of information. Fortunately there are hundreds of other tv-channels and sources available. Big international news agencies, papers, freelancers, correspondents etc...

	03-03-2002 01:41									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Siro , do like me . quit. play some Empire Earth . Get drunk . Fail classes ... ermm... nevermind , I guess not all my ideas are good ... :shy:

I do it.

I did it when Kamrat X behaved much the same and enraged me too.

I "banned my self" from poly for a day or two.

I guess I'm getting more sentinmental.


and I'm failing classes too

Get on ICQ or something.

	03-03-2002 01:43									#106
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Nice try dalgetti, colour my statement even more and you'll paint me as Saddam Husseins right hand.

Hmmm... I thought it was a pretty good discription of what you said... All your backpedaling now doesn't change what you posted, or what you meant when you posted it.

	03-03-2002 01:46									#107
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Read the book "Bias"... it is by somebody who used to work for CBS... I think... these news networks are terrible. I watch CNN for laughs. They think they got the solution for everything.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...2316533-6547044

I condemn all deaths, whether they be Israeli or Palestinian. And Sadat once said "Please let there be no more war between Arabs and Israelis"... if he didn't get assassinated he would of got this whole thing settled.

	03-03-2002 01:48									#108
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Maybe we shouldnt have these ME-discussion at all anymore. There cant be real discussion. there are only Israelies and the rest of the world, no palestinians around. as I try to say something I got bashed and called an evil biggot, stupid westerner who knows nothing about anything. israelians can always say "hey I only have to look out of my window and I see it happening". What can we say? We are not there to witness is so we are not equal to disagree with you. As long as we dont have a palestinian point of view here, we might never get on with the subject...

	03-03-2002 01:49									#109
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quote: Nice try dalgetti, colour my statement even more and you'll paint me as Saddam Husseins right hand.

damn, my plot has failed....


anyway, is there something I pictured wrong ? do you rejoice the death of civilians or not ? that's a fairly simple question, right? if the answer is 'not' , then why the hell did you posted the words I quoted above?


and Siro , why don't you reply to ICQ ? you already managed to drag me here ...

	03-03-2002 01:51									#110
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Nice try dalgetti, colour my statement even more and you'll paint me as Saddam Husseins right hand.

No one has to colour you.
You said it yourself that you rejoice every Israeli death, especially soldiers.

quote: For Siro: I had my CNN subscription canceled after I got sick by their news coverage. So I agree with you that CNN is not so good source of information. Fortunately there are hundreds of other tv-channels and sources available. Big international news agencies, papers, freelancers, correspondents etc...

Hmm...

big international news agencies?

AP admitted to have been threatened by palestinian gunmen.
Italian TV published an appology to the palestinians after it released a video of the two soldiers lynching in Ramallah - again out of fear.
Reuters news editor admitted that when he releases news he "takes into consideration possible dangers to our reporters", this when asked about his ME policy.
BBC news editor is known to have openly said "We're on the palestinian side" while they should take no sides.

The economist are a bunch which think they know alot, when infact they don't. I some of their articles. They are pretty shallow people who like to think they're not. However if you trust them, I have some pro-isralei articles by them.

The Guardian also seems to only cover the palestinian side. Infact, when I clicked on an "interactive map of the conflict" it contained every bit of Israeli attacks, but no info about palestinian attacks.

So, who do you rely on?

I stopped relying on those agencies. while they do sometimes bring interesting quotes, they go out of their way to pain a picture in their head, not reality.

Furthermore, they lack the contacts in the field that Israeli TV has. They never bring quotes/captures from palestinian TV and news which show what hypocrites and liars they are.

They never inverview people who are not official spokesmen.

In an area filled with covert operations, they rely on public sources to paint a picture of what's going on.

	03-03-2002 01:51									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... I thought it was a pretty good discription of what you said... All your backpedaling now doesn't change what you posted, or what you meant when you posted it.

Ok, maybe I didn't put it right but I wont admit meaning that I rejoyce any israelian getting killed. You are just gonna have to trust my good meaning on this one.

	03-03-2002 01:53									#112
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The number one news source: http://www.theonion.com



On a more serious note this is probably the most unbiased new source on the internet:

http://www.drudgereport.com/ (It brings up way too many different sources to count, so people can make up their own minds)

	03-03-2002 01:58									#113
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Maybe we shouldnt have these ME-discussion at all anymore. There cant be real discussion. there are only Israelies and the rest of the world, no palestinians around.

There is warvoid.

There are plenty of people who are actually not hotheaded, such as ramo, chegitz, jaakko, ras.. something and even gnu, who is one of the worst demagogues and supports killing of innocent people, but you and kamrat make me long for him.

quote: as I try to say something I got bashed and called an evil biggot, stupid westerner who knows nothing about anything.

You are a hypocrite again.

You ignore a good half of my posts in this thread with replies to you.

You got bashed for ignoring them and acting in a hypocritical manner.

quote: israelians can always say "hey I only have to look out of my window and I see it happening". What can we say? We are not there to witness is so we are not equal to disagree with you.

first, it was mentioning how your resources are worse then ours.

but you weren't bashed for that, but for acting hypocritically, which was exposed nicely by me and dalgetti, and you still ignore those posts.

quote: As long as we dont have a palestinian point of view here, we might never get on with the subject...

We have had plenty such points of view by people who are not online right now, or are too tired of ME discussions going in circles.

I don't see che, rammo and jakko as much these days.

	03-03-2002 01:58									#114
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Maybe we shouldnt have these ME-discussion at all anymore. There cant be real discussion. there are only Israelies and the rest of the world, no palestinians around.

that's true. Most people can't claim to know what's going on.
But somehow they do tend to form a very solid and at times one-sided POV. I think I even had an arguement with one a short time ago. still it is important to debate . and I feel that I am doing the right thing confronting the questions and attacks , that are brought up around.

quote: as I try to say something I got bashed and called an evil biggot, stupid westerner who knows nothing about anything.

do you wait for someone to shed a tear? or let me put this in a different manner: what do you expect to be called after your comments and replies in this thread?

quote: israelians can always say "hey I only have to look out of my window and I see it happening". What can we say? We are not there to witness is so we are not equal to disagree with you. As long as we dont have a palestinian point of view here, we might never get on with the subject...

This is important . Better let all the hate and the prejudice out , before it turns into violent actions.

	03-03-2002 02:07									#115
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I feel this is not really going anywhere right now. I'm under verbal attack from a well-known spanish far-rightwinger, 3 isreali rightwing sionists? And one of them urges me to list all the news sources ever that I've got my information from....

Since I have been declared a evil, misconducted anti-semitist, I think I'll pass the sword to next reasonable apolytoner to defend the palestinian rights too. One shouldnt try dispute with fundamentalists...

over and out


Laurentius

	03-03-2002 02:09									#116
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dal, now it's your turn to answer me on ICQ

about RoN



OK, laurentius - fresh start.

You reread my answers to your posts.

I'll ignore the remarks i don't like about israelis, you ignore the remarks you don't like about you.

deal?

	03-03-2002 02:18									#117
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Hey siro, nothing personal! Anytime! So what do you want me to say? List News agencies and papers?

ok, Yle, AFP, BBC, Al-jazeera, FST, Helsingin Sanomat, Voima-lehti...as the lates to pop-up in my mind
I still fail to see your point....

	03-03-2002 02:19									#118
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I feel this is not really going anywhere right now. I'm under verbal attack from a well-known spanish far-rightwinger, 3 isreali rightwing sionists?

who said we're rightwing?

just because we refuse to sit back and watch israelis being slaughtered we're right wing?

quote: and one of the urges me to list all the news sources ever that I've got my information from....

why does that scare you?

It was a qeustion.

quote: Since I have been declared a evil, misconducted anti-semitist, I think I'll pass the sword to next reasonable apolytoner to defend the palestinian rights too.

No where did you defend palestinian rights in your posts.

You simply attacked Israeli rights - the right to defend oneself.

Your first post here was a declaration of your rejoicing over Israeli deaths, and how we are a disgrace to you.

great "discussion".

And I know for the life of me, that i tried to talk to you on topic.
You chose to ignore it, repeatedly.
And when you finally responded to one post with a is when I became mad.
No one blamed you, until you began acting hypocritically.
But you like to be the victim. So fine, go away.

	03-03-2002 02:24									#119
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Hey siro, nothing personal! Anytime! So what do you want me to say? List News agencies and papers?

Never mind that.

to my main point:

there is a difference between actions, based on the intention.

I do not understand why you choose to ignore the intention and only focus on the result, which happens to be more dead palestinians than israelis.

using the same reason, one could compare the german and american number of dead, and decide the americans were evil opressors of the german people.

	03-03-2002 02:25									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And Eli... most of time, you seem to be talking to yourself... maybe you should go see a good doctor to see if you can solve that problem

After this thread got 120 posts, I demand an apology.