05-03-2002 21:15									#61
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man well, its not hard for them to get weapons. theres a little place called pakistan, i beleive it is in a northern province were there is no law, basically, and guns are on sale aevery where. so, its not hard for them to get what they havnt got. and i am not only speaking of the taliban, in the event of a civil war, then there is a whole new ball games. .

a civil war would be a whole new ball game, but thats speculation at this point. IF the entire pashtun region were to rebel against the kabul govt, we might very well have a quagmire on how our hands. That in fact is almost certainly what the taliban/alqaeeda have been counting on since September. But we've been doing almost all we can since October to avoid jsut such an outcome, from restraining northern alliance troops, to aiding anti-taliban pashtuns, to insuring a real pashtun presence in the new govt, including KArzai above all. This will remain touch and go for a while, but it seems that so far there is far more support for the new govt among the pashtun population than there is opposition to it.

LOTM

	06-03-2002 01:08									#62
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LaRusso do you know what a Thermobaric bomb is? IT is a bomb that fills tunnels with big balls of fire. So much for having an elaborate tunnel system... the terrorists are screwed.

	06-03-2002 01:43									#63
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@ peaceful people of afghanistan........

	06-03-2002 02:45									#64
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"IT is a bomb that fills tunnels with big balls of fire"

Actually, I thought it was a bomb that tries to suck all the oxygen out of a confined space...

If it was a magic bullet then there wouldn't still be cave complexes in operation. It's just another tool in a tool-kit.

	06-03-2002 02:51									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "IT is a bomb that fills tunnels with big balls of fire" Actually, I thought it was a bomb that tries to suck all the oxygen out of a confined space... If it was a magic bullet then there wouldn't still be cave complexes in operation. It's just another tool in a tool-kit.

http://www.dtra.mil/td/thermo/td_thermo.html

The significant difference is the replacement of the high explosive fill with a new thermobaric explosive that provides increased lethality in confined spaces.

You were correct. I was thinking of something else. Well maybe I was right and you are right, the blast of fire sucks up all the oxygen.

	06-03-2002 02:51									#66
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark a civil war would be a whole new ball game, but thats speculation at this point. IF the entire pashtun region were to rebel against the kabul govt, we might very well have a quagmire on how our hands. That in fact is almost certainly what the taliban/alqaeeda have been counting on since September. But we've been doing almost all we can since October to avoid jsut such an outcome, from restraining northern alliance troops, to aiding anti-taliban pashtuns, to insuring a real pashtun presence in the new govt, including KArzai above all. This will remain touch and go for a while, but it seems that so far there is far more support for the new govt among the pashtun population than there is opposition to it. LOTM

Unless I'm mistaken, there already is a civil war in Afghanistan.

	06-03-2002 02:52									#67
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quote: I am pro-American.

that's at least the 7th time now you've said this. Still nobody believes you. Oh how I wonder...

	06-03-2002 02:57									#68
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I'm positive the americans have committed attrocities. Whenever I hear about tha guy getting killed while "interogating" suspects in that prison I piss myself laughing. Only god knows the tortures that he performed

Also the americans have killed thousands of civilians in Afganistan. That's an attrocity however you look or «justify» it.

Now there are thousands of family members who have lost their loved ones to the america bombs and they want blood.

That's the raw reality and sorry if it doesn't please you.

About the civil war. Afganistan remains unstable... That's why you hear the american's little whore blair saying over and over that we won't abandon it... in other words there's the need to be there to prevent the sh!t from hitting the fan.

And that's about that.

	06-03-2002 03:06									#69
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I'm positive the americans have committed attrocities. Whenever I hear about tha guy getting killed while "interogating" suspects in that prison I piss myself laughing. Only god knows the tortures that he performed Also the americans have killed thousands of civilians in Afganistan. That's an attrocity however you look or «justify» it.

Evidence for any of what you are saying? I am sure the taliban killed the civilians themselves and attempted to blackmail the US.

quote: Now there are thousands of family members who have lost their loved ones to the america bombs and they want blood.

I doubt that. The Afghan people were slaughtered by the taliban and you didn't want the taliban removed? What is wrong with you? Millions of would died from starvation because the Taliban were seizing all food aide.

And overall my response to your pathetic troll is:

	06-03-2002 03:13									#70
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Paiktis, it was already established in a previous thread (no, I don't remember which one) that the civilian casualty figures were greatly exagerated by the Taliban government and the journalists it controlled. Any analysis based on that data is worthless.

	06-03-2002 03:13									#71
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I was in favor of removing the taliban.

And as ironic as it sounds I supported the idea that there was no easy solution about this and that action was necessairy.

I have one objection and that is if there was a less bloody way to do it.

All in all I supported action in Afganistan from day one and those that have read it will remember.

That does not change reality, nor my position about the need for action.

	06-03-2002 03:15									#72
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I was in favor of removing the taliban. And as ironic as it sounds I supported the idea that there was no easy solution about this and that action was necessairy. I have one objection and that is if there was a less bloody way to do it. All in all I supported action in Afganistan from day one and those that have read it will remember. That does not change reality, nor my position about the need for action.

Though the numbers were extremely inflated by the taliban... I feel the population of Afghanistan was saved from total disaster. At least they will get basic needs.

There is not any less bloody way to do this. This "country" rather territory of factions has been subjected to war since 1979. The differences were so splintered the taliban would of killed off a bunch of their own population to reach self-gain.

	06-03-2002 03:52									#73
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It's not for you to decide about the Afganis. They decide for themselves.

The US was hit and the americans responded the only way they know and that's why Afganistan was bombed.

Trying to justify the bombings by other means than national interests leads to nowhere. The taliban for example had providerd a much lacking stability to the place that is now in danger again.

I still have serious questions as to the extent of bombings and to what extend was that done to feed the blood lust of the average american after 11 sept.

And the dead are dead and the killers remain killers. Nothing changes that including the interests of a country.

My only hope is that Afganistan will be perseived as a serious threat still so that the west don't just pack and leave after bombing it and killing people but actually helps it. (since if it doesn;t the planes will be flying again on the new WTC).

	06-03-2002 05:13									#74
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Paiktis, do you have any evidence that the US is torturing people, or do you just believe that it's proven by the fact that we haven't given you full support against Turkey?

	06-03-2002 05:28									#75
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The last one only excites my imagination since Turkey is doing these things too Like father like son

But seriously do I have evidence? Absolutely zero, zip, I don't work for the government.

But it does seem a high propability both in Gauantanamo and particularly in the situation of the prison "interrogation".

Evidence may present itself after 50 years when they are not so «sensitive» any more or if someone cracks open the files by... other means.

Even if there was/is most will accept it as a necessairy evil though... I fear.

	06-03-2002 05:45									#76
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So in short, your statements here are just the sum of your biases.

	06-03-2002 05:48									#77
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http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/World/Afghanistan/

- Hundreds of Taliban/Al Qaeda fighters have been killed.

It is over for them.

	06-03-2002 05:52									#78
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France and other Nazi occupied territories were heavily bombed during WW2. Did the people hate the Allies for that? No. Same deal with Afghanistan.

	06-03-2002 05:55									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Natan So in short, your statements here are just the sum of your biases.

Biases come in two ways, from the other side too.
It is funny when these biases are called "opinions" when they are pleasant to you (or to whoever).. isn't it?

In any case not exactly biases since you'll see that I never advocated to be certain. And the suspition of torture is not based on what I think of a particular country but on what these situations are inherently infested with and what the ones involved in it have been done in the past.
So you can call it a rumour or more accurately a "smoke".

	06-03-2002 05:58									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend France and other Nazi occupied territories were heavily bombed during WW2. Did the people hate the Allies for that? No. Same deal with Afghanistan.

This is not a world war. It is a country bombed by another country which to many of these people represents "satan" or something of that sort.

Some will like you for it (the enemies of the taliban) some will not (the friends of the taliban and anyone who had a dear person to him killed by your bombs - we are talking about civilians here).

	06-03-2002 06:01									#81
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 This is not a world war. It is a country bombed by another country which to many of these people represents "satan" or something of that sort. Some will like you for it (the enemies of the taliban) some will not (the friends of the taliban and anyone who had a dear person to him killed by your bombs - we are talking about civilians here).

I think most will... because they were starving paiktis, if the US didn't go in and shutdown the taliban for good, millions of would died.

	06-03-2002 06:16									#82
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Biases come in two ways, from the other side too. It is funny when these biases are called "opinions" when they are pleasant to you (or to whoever).. isn't it? In any case not exactly biases since you'll see that I never advocated to be certain. And the suspition of torture is not based on what I think of a particular country but on what these situations are inherently infested with and what the ones involved in it have been done in the past. So you can call it a rumour or more accurately a "smoke".

The reason I called it "the sum of your biases" is that you have not provided even a single piece of information, not one little trivial factoid, to back up your outrageous claim. The whole basis of it was that "because I like to think of America as a nasty place, I believe that they torture people." Normally, when people say that their neighbor must be an ax murderer because of the way he wears his hair, they're joking. I hope you are too.

	06-03-2002 06:25									#83
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Some will like you for it (the enemies of the taliban) some will not (the friends of the taliban and anyone who had a dear person to him killed by your bombs - we are talking about civilians here).

Given the speed of Taliban collapse, it's apparent they don't have much support among Afghans. I bet most Afghans nowadays are kind waiting to see how things are going to turn out. If the current government is doing a much better better than Talibans, then the pains caused by US bombings will be forgotten. If not, we'll have troubles.

	06-03-2002 06:25									#84
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Natan,
I cannot have any evidence now since they are all monopolized by the government. Fortunately we will both be alive in 50 years and we can see for ourselves what happened once these files become public.

For the time being, contemplate this:

the US is under attack with thousands of victims.
the possibility of further attacks is so clear it shines
meanwhile the US is fighting a war in a historically proven difficult terrain
do you believe, even for one minute, that americans (or most other people - nationality matters very little in these things) would not use torture and then justify it within an instant if they thought that it meant acquiring valuable information?

I don't need to have evidence (actually I can't by default have any evidence in this for the reasons I explained) so logic is the next best thing. And logic, in this matter, is unwavering and devastatingly obvious.

About the US, its history has proven that it is capable of acting without any morality (as do most if not all countries) and due to its power the damage done is greater.

But this is has not to do about the US but about the overall situation. Logic directs in this way.

Maybe it's time for you to leave your pro-american biases behind and face reality and logic?

What is outrageous (and very dicomforting) is that you refuse to contemplate that possibility because it involves americans. A clear bias if I have ever seen one

	06-03-2002 06:26									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend Given the speed of Taliban collapse, it's apparent they don't have much support among Afghans. I bet most Afghans nowadays are kind waiting to see how things are going to turn out. If the current government is doing a much better better than Talibans, then the pains caused by US bombings will be forgotten. If not, we'll have troubles.

I agree and that's why we must not abandon this place now. It is one of those rare instances where doing the right thing and serving one's interests are identical.

	06-03-2002 06:28									#86
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I cannot have any evidence now since they are all monopolized by the government. Fortunately we will both be alive in 50 years and we can see for ourselves what happened once these files become public.

quote: For the time being, conemplate this: the US is under attack with thousands of victims. the possibility of further attacks is so clear it shines meanwhile the US is fighting a war in a historically proven difficult terrain do you believe, even for one minute, that americans (or most other people) would not use torture and then justify it within an instant if they thought that it meant acquiring valuable information?

No they would not!

quote: I don't need to have evidence (actually I can't by default have any evidence in this for the reasons I explained) so logic is the next best thing. And logic, in this matter, is unwavering and devastatingly obvious.

Quite trolling!

quote: About the US, its history has proven that it is capable of acting without any morality (as do most if not all countries) and due to its power the damage done is greater.

I am about to doze off because these trolls are so tediously incorrect.

quote: Maybe it's time for you to leave your pro-american biases behind and face reality and logic?

Damn it paiktis, maybe you should leave your pro-terrorist biases and start looking at what really happened. You either are with the civilized world or against it.

quote: What is outrageous (and very dicomforting) is that you refuse to conemplate that possibility because it involves americans. A clear bias if I have ever seen one

And you fail to demostrate any slightest amount, even a small drop of evidence to prove what you are saying.

	06-03-2002 06:37									#87
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AND BTW Natan, I remember you writing that mild torture (as is permitted by the Israeli consitution IIRC) was an "acceptable means for acquiring information" if it meant preventing imminent terrorist attacks... (it was a debate with GP who very dynamically refused to accept it, and GP is a member of the US army and that's one of the things that give me great hope)

What changed with you now?

	06-03-2002 06:47									#88
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I'm off to bed. One more thing. There are about 177 Greek soldiers with their vehicles and equipment somewhere in Afganistan right now.

Can I guarantee that they will be 100% correct and acting like soldiers worthy of representing Greece in a moral manner?

I'm sorry to say that I can't. I cannot know with absolute certainty that they will not act immoraly.

I "feel" that they won't and that they will stand correct.
But I can never exclude a priori this possibility. And not excluding possibilities like that (nomatter how crude the example I used) is also doing a service to the "civilized world". (taking into consideration all aspects of a situation of course - not acting like holier-than-thou scum).

edit: and BTW in the beggining I fully agree that it was a minor troll

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 06-03-2002 at 07:02

	06-03-2002 07:03									#89
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Paiktis, did I say we shouldn't torture Al-Qaida terrorists under any circumstance? No, I just said that we don't. It's different. You claim that US history proves that we can act without any morality, but do you have any examples of cases where the CIA itself tortured people? Or, more relevantly to the Guantanamo case, where the US marines did?

	06-03-2002 11:58									#90
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What I would like to know is where are all the apolytoners who claimed the war would be over by Christmas, or who claimed the Taliban had been defeated?

Anyone want to fess up that they got it wrong?