04-03-2002 23:23									#1
	Who said Afghanistan wouldn't be another Vietnam... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm not saying that at the end of the war western casualties will be about as high as were the American ones in Vietnam, but just have a look at this. When it all started many of us said it would only be a short war, only be about defeating the Taliban in several days. And the general assumption was that while the Soviets tried to get control over the area, we would only destroy the evil guys.

Thing is, you can't destroy an army like this, especially not in a mountain region like this. And then, we are indeed trying to control the region by not only founding a new government but also supporting it militar-wise, and we're not going to retreat from the region that quickly, since those guys are still pretty much into playing the powerful local warlord. That means we need to be there to stabilize the region, which makes us more vulnerable to resistance by militant guys.

Now that Germany is going to take over the command over the local troops in Kabul, another interesting point has gained importance lately over here - the fact that guerillas will find it easy to attack stationary troops in Kabul from the mountains, since Kabul is basically encircled by hills and mountains. With a few grenade launchers you can inflict a lot of damage on a camp, and there seem to be no decent tactics against that sort of hassle.

	04-03-2002 23:36									#2
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Troll.

Why do you persist with your anti-Americanism?

	04-03-2002 23:43									#3
	Re: Who said Afghanistan wouldn't be another Vietnam... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'm not saying that at the end of the war western casualties will be about as high as were the American ones in Vietnam, but just have a look at this. When it all started many of us said it would only be a short war, only be about defeating the Taliban in several days. And the general assumption was that while the Soviets tried to get control over the area, we would only destroy the evil guys. Thing is, you can't destroy an army like this, especially not in a mountain region like this. And then, we are indeed trying to control the region by not only founding a new government but also supporting it militar-wise, and we're not going to retreat from the region that quickly, since those guys are still pretty much into playing the powerful local warlord. That means we need to be there to stabilize the region, which makes us more vulnerable to resistance by militant guys. Now that Germany is going to take over the command over the local troops in Kabul, another interesting point has gained importance lately over here - the fact that guerillas will find it easy to attack stationary troops in Kabul from the mountains, since Kabul is basically encircled by hills and mountains. With a few grenade launchers you can inflict a lot of damage on a camp, and there seem to be no decent tactics against that sort of hassle.

First off, we have the technology to drop bombs that can burrow into the caves and tunnels to blow the terrorists to smitherins.

Secondly, we know the challenges of the mountainous terrain and have already experienced difficulties with the terrain. BUT, we have deployed specific missions and operations with a unit of only a dozen or so men with such obstacles in mind.

Thirdly, the international forces are coordinating their missions with the native alliances, such as the Northern Alliance.

And last, but certainly not least, most wars take years TO WIN. If we lost patience after the fighting in World War II lasted for six months and decided to call it quits, Nazi Germany would have won. So do not start crying just because this war has lasted for four months.

I cannot think of any other comments.

	04-03-2002 23:57									#4
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I'm not crying, I'm just saying those wh osaid the war would last 2 weeks were wrong.

Could Mr Spink explain me how this is anti-American in any way?

	04-03-2002 23:58									#5
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quote: Why do you persist with your anti-Americanism?

Did anybody else find this funny considering its source?

	05-03-2002 00:00									#6
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yes.

	05-03-2002 00:01									#7
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I am pro-American.

	05-03-2002 00:01									#8
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I, and many other, just can't find that funny anymore.

Therefore, the ignore list feature has gained popularity on this board lately, even among many European users.

	05-03-2002 00:04									#9
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If you post another reply without answering my question, you'll never reach me again with any of your trolls

	05-03-2002 00:08									#10
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Was the D-Day unnecessary too? How about overthrowing Manuel Noriega? Did Kuwait need to be liberate? War is war. And people like you ecthelion won´t win this argument.

quote: Thing is, you can't destroy an army like this, especially not in a mountain region like this.

Yes you can. With 15,000 pound bombs you can.

quote: since those guys are still pretty much into playing the powerful local warlord.

There is a difference between the Interim government and the warlords. The interim government is receiving a substantial amount of money to function, the warlords are getting very little. So the warlords will join the interim government or become quiet.

	05-03-2002 00:09									#11
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quote: Did anybody else find this funny considering its source?

yes , very much so...

I also liked this part very much:

quote: Troll.

	05-03-2002 00:32									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Was the D-Day unnecessary too? How about overthrowing Manuel Noriega? Did Kuwait need to be liberate? War is war. And people like you ecthelion won´t win this argument.

I don't know what you're talking abou,t you seem to be missing the point

quote: There is a difference between the Interim government and the warlords. The interim government is receiving a substantial amount of money to function, the warlords are getting very little. So the warlords will join the interim government or become quiet.

The warlords I'm talking about are a part of the interim government

	05-03-2002 01:05									#13
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Since German troops will be putting themselves into harm's way, I view Ecthelion's post as nothing more or less than a legitimate airing of his POV.

That said, when did anyone say this was going to be a short war? The sudden collapse of Taliban forces in a few days came as a complete surprise to everyone involved--certainly the American High Command, which spent that time desperately trying to rein the Northern Alliance in. The prison revolt then showed that there was still plenty of fight in these guys.

As it is, we have congressmen wondering aloud if we are actually going to win this.

	05-03-2002 01:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk As it is, we have congressmen wondering aloud if we are actually going to win this.

That wasn't the impression I got of Senator Daschle's comments.

	05-03-2002 01:15									#15
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Dunno--seemed to me he was saying that if we didn't get bin Laden, it would all be for nothing. What was your interpretation?

	05-03-2002 01:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Dunno--seemed to me he was saying that if we didn't get bin Laden, it would all be for nothing. What was your interpretation?

The bin Laden part of his comments was obviously nonsense and I disregarded it in its entirity. The important part of his comments were his questioning the expansion of the war before we got finished in Afghanistan.

BTW, do you think this new change in tactics will have more traction with the American public now that the American public has realized that there appears to be no there, there with Enron and the economy seems to be on the rebound?

	05-03-2002 01:34									#17
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Unlikely--I don't no about where you are (where are you, again?) but here in the NYC area people are still aware of the empty space that used to be the towers. I think we understand that what Bush is doing is what must be done.

	05-03-2002 01:39									#18
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I acknowledge I misunderstood the point of Ecthelion's point. Let me just post what I think about the war.

If the US does not get Bin Laden, it still is a victory because Afghanistan will be cleaned of terrorists like Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Afghanistan will no longer be a place where Bin Laden can go, and sooner or later he will be caught because the whole civilized world is looking for him.

I think the war in Afghanistan has a bit more to go, and so far has been toward's the Afghan Interim Government and US's favor ten to none but there will be casualities. There will be casualities because a war is war, but in this war the Al Qaeda and Taliban will receive by far the greater amount of casualities.

	05-03-2002 02:02									#19
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quote: Thirdly, the international forces are coordinating their missions with the native alliances, such as the Northern Alliance.

Bassically saying, Afghans are dying instead of US troops....



I have followed the Afghan thing (i livein UK so less propagana/patristsm crap) and bassically, it is slowly evelving into Viet Nam, there is an unknown amount of guys hiding in the mountais, just yesturday (or the day before) the US lost a soldier (and 3 afghans) trying to get them out saying after: they are better defended then we though.

cave busters are worthless, especially if you dont know where the caves are. Also add the fact the US IS extending its war (troops in philipines and possible Iraq soon) which means they are overstreching themselves, so when (and there will be) major conflict breaks out in Afghanistan the US has the choice of leaving and therefore beiong ridiculed, or staying just to save face.


Afganistan is also on the brink of civil war, warlords all over the country are still fighting, plus the interim govt. is made up of opposing factions, only needs one tip of the balance and boom.

the US has also posted military advisors, very reminisent of Viet Nam. Send a few advisors, 10,000 troops this year, a couple more advisors, some more troops - all of a suddedn theres a war on.

	05-03-2002 02:03									#20
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quote: but in this war the Al Qaeda and Taliban will receive by far the greater amount of casualities.

5 vietnemise died for every US troop in vietnam, 10 Russians for every Nazi in WW2.

who won?

	05-03-2002 02:23									#21
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Georgia and the Philipinnes are side-shows for now, unless those governments, specially the philipinno, talk the US into givng support not only against terrorist, but seperatist rebels also, whom the philipinnes calls terroristss.

We need at least 6 months to be ready to do anything against Iraq- rebuild bomb-stocks, which are very low, gather bases, get agreements for the hundred of thousands of US troops that will be needed. So Afghaninstan will remain the main theater.

Once the US feels al-Quade and the Taliban have been destroyed, and specially if the anti-Iraq war comes, US interest in afghanistan will wane heavily, though I think the International community, or just simply perhaps Iran, will do all possible to bring stability, since they are sick of the rersults of violence in Afghnanistan.

	05-03-2002 02:38									#22
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Sorry, i shoudlnt post out of date news.

I said a American dies the other day, well another 9 died today, there helicopters were shot down. so if the cave people can shoot choppers downs, its bad.....

	05-03-2002 02:39									#23
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dp

	05-03-2002 02:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man 5 vietnemise died for every US troop in vietnam, 10 Russians for every Nazi in WW2. who won?

Again, no. The circumstances of this is the US has the larger United Front working with them... and the pockets of resistance are negilible in size. And it is highly anti-american and uncivilized of you to even begin to think that some shoodily trained group like Al Qaeda which doesn't have support anymore to beat the US.

	05-03-2002 02:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man Sorry, i shoudlnt post out of date news. I said a American dies the other day, well another 9 died today, there helicopters were shot down. so if the cave people can shoot choppers downs, its bad.....

So what? The batteries on the Al qaeda ****er's stingers are so old, I wouldn't be surprised if the damn things blew up in their hands if they tried firing at a helicopter.

Do you really any sense of what is happening?

	05-03-2002 02:47									#26
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That last post didn't make a lot of sense content-wise, Giancarlo

	05-03-2002 02:51									#27
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yesi htink i do. it is clear the US is stuck in Afghanistan no matter what, other wise they loose face among the public, aswell as other nations which, as the USA military deployments increasae, the other nations which are going to increasingly carry the financial burden of the US army - it is already happening to an extent. but not much.


So the US is in the long haul now, and it is fighting a group of people who are fanatics, and are, like an american, willing to dye for there 'cause'. Bassicaly, the US is fighting a war againt people who wont give up under any circumstance, like the UK and the IRA in 1920's, and the Isreali's and the Palistinians now. The only way towin is to whipe out an entire race of people, which is near impossible.

also note, that everything the US is doing looks increasingly like a crusade against the muslems, wheather it is or not dosnt matter, because the Muslims will feel they are being attacked by the evil Americans, and so the USA would have 700million to exterminate.....

	05-03-2002 02:52									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion That last post didn't make a lot of sense content-wise, Giancarlo

Let me rephrase that... the batteries on the Stinger Missles held by Al-Qaeda are so old they can get jammed and misfire. These two helicopters are just about everything that the last remains of Al Qaeda can shoot down.

It will be more than a piece of cake to take out the rest of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

	05-03-2002 02:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man also note, that everything the US is doing looks increasingly like a crusade against the muslems, wheather it is or not dosnt matter, because the Muslims will feel they are being attacked by the evil Americans, and so the USA would have 700million to exterminate.....

I have to disagree with that... I don't think that is true at all... look I have to do my homework now, talk to you later.

	05-03-2002 02:58									#30
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homework, HAHAHA.

anywho, the fact is, the talioban troops took out the helicopters. they also have defensive terrain. it is so easy for them to post a few snipers somewhere, and take out about 10-20 troops before they even find the sniper.


i dont think YOU have anysense of whats going on, and how hard it is to fight a gurrila campaighn.... i dont actually know of a gurrila situation where the gurrila's lost.