06-08-2002 23:26									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Killerdaffy Probably right, but then, how many cannons could you fit on a sloop or barque?

I haven't played this magnificent game for long years but i think sloop carries 64, barque 96, and frigate 128 cannons max.

	06-08-2002 23:35									#242
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player 1,

Two things that came from the discussion in the Strategy forum:

1) Great Wall. It's a weak wonder. Giving it walls in every city in the continent would make it worth building. It would also benefit the AI, who tries to build it as soon as possible. After construction, the core of an empire is usually mostly cities. This change would benefit newly-build or conquered towns at the outskirts of your empire, just like the real Great Wall!

2) AI offense flag for MI. I think it should stay. I think that infantry flagged for attack by the AI will not be upgraded to MI otherwise. The AI will still not build attack MI from scratch because tanks are a better deal. But it will upgrade attack infantry, giving it better attack and mobility, which will help it since the upgrade cost is small.

What do you think?

	07-08-2002 00:54									#243
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quote: Originally posted by alexman 2) AI offense flag for MI. I think it should stay. I think that infantry flagged for attack by the AI will not be upgraded to MI otherwise. The AI will still not build attack MI from scratch because tanks are a better deal. But it will upgrade attack infantry, giving it better attack and mobility, which will help it since the upgrade cost is small. What do you think?

I think that it WILL be upgraded, as far as I have playtested.
(Did someone noticed the opposite?)


Now, only thing I'm not sure about, is what strategy those units will get?

1) offense: They will be only offense Mech. Inf. units in the game (new units will always be defensive). Not big deal since AI would othervise attack with old Infantries.

2) deffense: AI will have more defensive units, which would trigger building of more Tanks. Also good option.

So in anyway, it's OK if they stay without offense AI flag.

quote: Originally posted by alexman 1) Great Wall. It's a weak wonder. Giving it walls in every city in the continent would make it worth building. It would also benefit the AI, who tries to build it as soon as possible. After construction, the core of an empire is usually mostly cities. This change would benefit newly-build or conquered towns at the outskirts of your empire, just like the real Great Wall!

Usuly I try not to change stats for Wonders, but I'll think about this one.

	07-08-2002 01:54									#244
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Well, you were right.

The AI actually upgrades attack Infantry even if the upgrade does have the offense flag. It uses the upgraded unit for defense. Soren answered that question in the general forum.

So the question is now, do we want upgraded infantry to continue to attack as MI, or do we want to make the AI shift its balance from attack to defense and thus have to build more offensive units?

I think the answer depends on the situation. If the AI is not at war, the extra units will be a drain on his economy. But if it's at war, it should definitely stop building defensive units and build more offensive units.

In any case, good job, player 1!

	07-08-2002 03:57									#245
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As for Great Wall, it has normally "Doubles defense rating of cities" flag.

So what exaclty that means?

Is is sum of wall and city bonuses or what?

	07-08-2002 04:17									#246
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Ideas here:

Have a modern infantry unit, which the offensive/defensive infantry can upgrade to and remain offensive or defensive. Leave Mech Inf as defensive, as they should be. Tanks always take precidence because of their higher movement value, plus, if you put modern infantry with ecology, then MA follow soon after and will be the dominant offensive unit.

Check out my updated mod for more info if you wish.

J

Make the Great Wall give Walls to all cities on the continent, then make it cost 400..

	07-08-2002 04:20									#247
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Of course that would need adding of new unit and graphics.

So it porbably won't be done.

	07-08-2002 05:00									#248
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Is is sum of wall and city bonuses or what?

It's only the wall bonus. Mike B. confirmed that. Check out the GW thread in the strategy forum.

	07-08-2002 12:17									#249
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quote: Originally posted by player1 As for Great Wall, it has normally "Doubles defense rating of cities" flag. So what exaclty that means? Is is sum of wall and city bonuses or what?

It just doubles the anti-barbarian defense value of the city where the wonder was built. So it's completely useless!

I vote for giving walls on continent too! (as i've done it in my version of your mod player1)

	07-08-2002 13:43									#250
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Of course that would need adding of new unit and graphics. So it porbably won't be done.

Not necessarily so, but i understand the nature of your mod and so this may not be desired.

Anyway, for your interest, what i did was combine the para and marine together (10,8,1) and gave it the amphibious/airdrop ability (range 8). THis unit was called the marine but used the para's art/animation. Make the new marine need just rubber so the AI will build them when they can't build tanks (only time they will build them btw).

This then freed up the marine's art/animation which was then used for the modern infantry. I mean from the AI's perspective, having 2 relatively obsolete units (para and marine) is really daft. They only build marine's when they don't have oil!

This way you get quite an effective, special-purposes unit in the marine and a very useful late-game modern infantry which the AI most definitely uses well. Plus the helicopter has more purpose.

	07-08-2002 20:15									#251
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Player1, I catched a bug in both your mod and alexman's AU mod: Contrary to tanks and modern armors, the Panzer doesn't have the 'wheeled' flag.

	07-08-2002 21:49									#252
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Thanks for bug report!

.

.

Now,
Something about Great Wall & City Walls combo:

Has anybody tested what happens, when Great Wall becomes obsolete.

Will you keep city walls built before wonder?
Will "virtual city walls" disapear?

I ask this, because, there is not single wonder in Civ3 with similar "gives building in all cities" ability, which ever becomes obsolete.

So I don't know how is that supposed to work.
Or will it work?

	07-08-2002 22:31									#253
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Has anybody tested what happens, when Great Wall becomes obsolete. Will you keep city walls built before wonder? Will "virtual city walls" disapear?

Hmm ... at least, Civ3 is able to distinguish between improvements that have been built and improvements that have been granted for free. The former still show their maintenance costs in the city view; when you sell them, the improvement stays, but the maintenance disappears.

	08-08-2002 00:50									#254
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Just tested!

It should work well.


Anyway, I plan to change army cost back to 400 shields, but make Military Academy doesn't need victorious army.

What do you think?



Other thing I am wondering about is increasing cost of Ironclads to 100 to make them more destinctive compared to Frigates.

Of course only downside I can think of is that Ironclad to Destroyer upgarde would be a little cheap (40gp without Workshop).
But, I don't think it will be serious problem.

	08-08-2002 01:19									#255
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Anyway, I plan to change army cost back to 400 shields, but make Military Academy doesn't need victorious army. What do you think?

, as you may have guessed already from the AU mod thread.

If I were allowed to change one - and only one - rule of standard Civ3, this would be my choice.

	08-08-2002 01:24									#256
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Of course only downside I can think of is that Ironclad to Destroyer upgarde would be a little cheap (40gp without Workshop). But, I don't think it will be serious problem.

You know, of course what I (and lockstep, since it was his idea) will propose as a solution to this...

	08-08-2002 01:41									#257
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3, 2, 1, 'Make it upgrade to the battleship instead!'

	08-08-2002 01:43									#258
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No, no, no...
No low movment Ironclads.

Or otherwise I would not make Indust. as preq.
These are supposed to be fast (at least as sailing ships) and deadly ironclads.


And no upgardes to Battleships.
Seems silly ot have both Dest. & Ironl. in build queue befor Mass prod.



P.S.
Still, is 100 shield cost a good idea?

Is 40gp upgarde probelm, or not (maybe it's a GOOD thing?)

	08-08-2002 01:48									#259
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I remeber I read one Militray naval history book and how have Destoryers made Ironclads obsolete.

Basicly, in 19th century, there was a race between better guns vs better armor.

And at, the end, better guns won.

So they took out heavy armor and made ships much faster.

That way, than they could evande better guns, instead to absorb damage by ticker armor.

And then you got a Destoryer.

	08-08-2002 02:21									#260
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quote: Originally posted by player1 No, no, no... No low movment Ironclads.

I don't know if alexman's idea of faster frigates is 'realistic', but it makes for better gameplay IMO.

quote: And no upgardes to Battleships. Seems silly ot have both Dest. & Ironl. in build queue befor Mass prod.

Once you have researched Combustion (prereq for Destroyers), you're at most three techs away from Mass Production (prereq for Battleships). If you rushed to Replacable Parts before going for Combustion (which seems to be a common strategy), you're one tech away.

quote: Still, is 100 shield cost a good idea?

I don't see a problem with it.

quote: I remeber I read one Militray naval history book and how have Destoryers made Ironclads obsolete.

To be honest, I have no strong feelings about the ironclad upgrade issue. My 'battleship' suggestion came from the ironclad's Civilopedia entry. After all, what is a battleship in Civ3? A destroyer with about +50% attack strength, defense strength, bombard strength and shield costs.

	08-08-2002 02:30									#261
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Cheap vs expensive could make good gamplay too.

Anyway not everybody rushes to Indusrtialization, so you'll have time to play with Frigates.

And it looks like Man-O-War could be cost-effecitive against Ironclads: 60vs100 & 3vs4 (but not too much).

	08-08-2002 02:36									#262
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep I don't know if alexman's idea of faster frigates is 'realistic', but it makes for better gameplay IMO.

Somehow I liked to have more distinction between ships.


Firt, you get 4 movment insted of 3 (33% increase).

Then with combustion, you get also 33% increase (4 vs 6).

Adding Frigates with movment of 5 would make this break.

On the other hand, if you wanna make different movemnt rates, giving Ironclads movment of 3 would be resonable.

But, in that case, it would be taxing on AI.
And also, then, they should stay with cost of 80, and preq. of Steam Power.


I'll go with 100 shields cost.

	08-08-2002 02:55									#263
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Firt, you get 4 movment insted of 3 (33% increase). Then with combustion, you get also 33% increase (4 vs 6).

The second one is a 50% increase.

quote: Adding Frigates with movment of 5 would make this break.

3-4-6 vs. 3-5-6 .. I can live with both versions. And there's always the possibility to give destrovers and AEGIS cruisers a movement rate of 7, so that they are faster than battleships and carriers. (And if that combined with Magellan's Voyage brings destroyers to the maximal operational range of air units, then so be it.)

quote: On the other hand, if you wanna make different movemnt rates, giving Ironclads movment of 3 would be resonable. But, in that case, it would be taxing on AI.

This was also alexman's conclusion.

	08-08-2002 04:05									#264
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Version 1.32 is OUT!
Download from top of the thread.


Changes in ver 1.32

Panzer Tanks get Wheeled ability.
I don't know why I missed that, since I gave that ability to other motorized units long ago.

Ironclads get cost of 100, in order to make them more distinctive from Frigates. Also Frigates become more popular because of realtively cheap cost.

Military Academy small wonder doesn't need anymore a "victorious army" as prequisite. This is done in order to make building of armies a better option.

It would not be unbalancing since I returned old cost of 400 shiled to buiuld an army. Since army cost is as high as of one Wonder builing, making army by using leaders should still be usefull.

In Civ3, Great Wall wonder is at very low value for human player.
In order to fix that, I added an additional befenit to that great wonder.
Every city, at same continent as Great Wall, will also get free City Walls improvment.


Also, I made a small change in difficulty settings for effective number of optimal cities (used when calculating corruption). I upped number of optimal cities at lower difficulty levels, while keeping old numbers at higher levels. That way, I made game a little easier on corruption (but not too much) at lower difficulty levels.

So at Chieftain, optimal number is 150% of base number instead of 100%, at Warlord 120% instead of 95%, at Regent 100% instead of 90% and at Monarch level 90% instead of 85%. At Emperor and Deity levels optimal number is left unchanged (80% and 70% as before).

	08-08-2002 17:52									#265
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Player1, thanks for including the Military Academy change, which is my 'beloved' feature, in your mod!

As for further changes: I'd like to see that the best ideas for 'smoothing out the basic game' eventually converge into a single mod, a kind of 'Apolyton Standard'. At the moment, your 'Patch Suggestion' mod and alexman's 'Apolyton University' mod have acchieved a lot in that respect. I know that most of the differences between the two mods won't be resolved easily; this is especially true for the the Musketeer stats, the inclusion of zero range bombardment, the F-15/Stealth Fighter RoF, the movement rates of Frigates and Privateers and the ironclad upgrade path. The swordsman/longbowman upgrade path issue isn't that important IMO, because everything will change with PtW in that respect, and alexman's revised AI build priorities may undergo some changes due to playtesting. However, I'd like you to consider to implement the following changes of alexman's mod (which I suggested to him) also in your mod:

• Longevity doesn't yield additional happy faces and is available with Medicine instead of Genetics (costs are 800 shields instead of 1000). This makes the primary benefit of Longevity (faster city growth) actually useful and this wonder an interesting choice.
  
• SS Docking Bay requires Space Flight as in vanilla v1.29 instead of Robotics. That way, researching Robotics (which is one tech away from Minituarization, a prereq tech for space victory) becomes more of a strategic choice, because manufacturing plants could speed up the construction of SS parts.

Again thanks for updating your mod, which after all isn't that 'conservative' anymore.

EDIT: Your mod readme (for v1.00) still says 'Army gets price of 300'. You should add 'Removed in v1.32'.

EDIT2: A last major difference between AU mod and PS mod is the question of upgrading Privateers to Destroyers. I know that A/D rates of 2/1 are ridiculous in the late industrial and modern age; however, Privateers have hidden nationality. Are you sure that this isn't useful even in special cases (let's say, attacking heavily damaged transports of another Civ so that it won't be able to sustain an attack against a third Civ)?

Last edited by lockstep on 08-08-2002 at 18:08

	08-08-2002 18:46									#266
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep Longevity doesn't yield additional happy faces and is available with Medicine instead of Genetics (costs are 800 shields instead of 1000). This makes the primary benefit of Longevity (faster city growth) actually useful and this wonder an interesting choice.

Don't know about this one.
It would make is just too much different then original.

quote: [*]SS Docking Bay requires Space Flight as in vanilla v1.29 instead of Robotics. That way, researching Robotics (which is one tech away from Minituarization, a prereq tech for space victory) becomes more of a strategic choice, because manufacturing plants could speed up the construction of SS parts.[/list]Again thanks for updating your mod, which after all isn't that 'conservative' anymore.

From my gaming expirience, it would not be good strategic choice.
It would still be faster to leave Nuclear Power - Laser - Robotics at the end of research chain.

This way, you can at least play a little with Cruisers and Radar Artillery.

quote: EDIT: Your mod readme (for v1.00) still says 'Army gets price of 300'. You should add 'Removed in v1.32'.

Read it again.
There is:

quote: Army gets price of 300 (changed back to 400 in v1.32), to make players build these in Industrial age, not after they get 80+ shileds cities. Army gets also a pillage order.

quote: EDIT2: A last major difference between AU mod and PS mod is the question of upgrading Privateers to Destroyers. I know that A/D rates of 2/1 are ridiculous in the late industrial and modern age; however, Privateers have hidden nationality. Are you sure that this isn't useful even in special cases (let's say, attacking heavily damaged transports of another Civ so that it won't be able to sustain an attack against a third Civ)?

It could be usefull in 1-5% of cases.
But it won't be worth enough to have it "infest" your modern build queue.

	08-08-2002 19:11									#267
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Don't know about this one. It would make is just too much different then original.

Hmm .. but 'changing as little as possible' does not always mean 'changing little'. (And this change really makes for better gameplay.)

quote: From my gaming expirience, it would not be good strategic choice. It would still be faster to leave Nuclear Power - Laser - Robotics at the end of research chain. This way, you can at least play a little with Cruisers and Radar Artillery.

If I really wanted AEGIS cruisers, I'd research Robotics anyway. And if the Nuclear Power - Laser path is still the fastet road to space victory, I'd rather increase the costs of SS parts by 25% or 50% than changing yet another prerequisite. But I guess only playtesting will decide what's the better way.

quote: Read it again. There is:

It's correct in the zipped readme, but wrong at page 1 of this thread.

quote: It could be usefull in 1-5% of cases. But it won't be worth enough to have it "infest" your modern build queue.

Hmm ... have to think about that one.

	08-08-2002 20:13									#268
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep If I really wanted AEGIS cruisers, I'd research Robotics anyway. And if the Nuclear Power - Laser path is still the fastet road to space victory, I'd rather increase the costs of SS parts by 25% or 50% than changing yet another prerequisite. But I guess only playtesting will decide what's the better way.

Tried before with increased cost.

Kills AI desire to build Space Ship.

	08-08-2002 20:25									#269
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Tried before with increased cost. Kills AI desire to build Space Ship.

IIRC, it needed +150% to kill the AI's space victory desire. +25% or +50% might not be that bad. Also, Soren mentioned that the AI wil go more agressively for a space victory in v1.29, so we could at least give it a try.

	09-08-2002 01:07									#270
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Lockstep,

I have an idea!

Play a custom version of my MOD with higher cost of Space parts (with no part more expensive them 1000 shields).

Parts prices should then be: 250, 500, 1000

Playtest it and note how agressively AI aims for Space Victory.

After that, share your expirience with me & alex in this and AU thread.