11-03-2002 14:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ultraman Thanx for responding, and info on rate of fire. I'm still not clear. Would it have the same impact to have a unit with a bombard str of 6, and an ROF of 1 (6x1=6), vs a unit with a bombard str of 2, and an ROF of 3 (2x3=6)?

Not exactly.

For example:
Defender has defense of 4
Attaker has bombard rating of 8, and ROF of 2.
Chace for hit is 8+(8+4)=0.67 regardless of number of ROF.
But you can do two HITS. If you are lucky you'll take out two 2hp.
On the other hand unit with 16 bomb. rating has chage of 80% to do hit, but it will never do two hits.

Impact could be similar depending of what you atttack.
Is it unit with high defense or not?

If its defense is low, ROF is a more importatnt.
If its defense is high, bomb. rating is a more importatnt.

But, both are important in most cases.

Second example:
One bombardment with Bomber is exactly the same as bombardment with 3 Cannons (Bomber 8/3, Cannon 8/1).

quote: As for corruption and pollution, my scenario has hopefully halved both. You can set the flags in the editor. Reduced pollution of some improvements, and others like solar plant reduces; current setup is that it does nothing.

The fact is that I want to reduce polution form poplutiation.
I am OK with factory and power plant giving 4 point of pollutiom.

But, I am not ok with having 20 size city, with pollution of 8 (20-12) due to popultaion size.

Yes, Mass Trasist practicly eliminates that kind of pollution, but usually after I build Mass Transit I never have any kind of polluiton problems.
Until then, pollution in nightmare.

I hope Firaxsis will give at least flag for that in next editor.

	11-03-2002 14:37									#32
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Very illuminating indeed on ROF, thanx a bunch! Will be working on version 1.5 of my scenario, and will credit some of the thinking to you, if that's OK.

On pollution, you can set flags in the editor to knock off population pollution.

Thanx again!

	11-03-2002 14:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ultraman Very illuminating indeed on ROF, thanx a bunch! Will be working on version 1.5 of my scenario, and will credit some of the thinking to you, if that's OK.

Thanks!

quote: On pollution, you can set flags in the editor to knock off population pollution.

Do you mean Remove pop. polltion (default given to Mass Transit)?

If that, it only helps one time. You get building, and pop. pollution is no more.

I would rather have somting like reduced effect, reagrdless of buildings built.

	16-03-2002 02:01									#34
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I was playing this MOD yesterday.

When I wanted to upgrade my legions I got one big suprise.

1120 gold for 14 Legions to Riflemen!

I guess that Leonardo Workshop is much more importatnt now.

Anyway MOD works fine for me.

	16-03-2002 02:36									#35
	Put an end to popups!

It works fine for me too - I love it! It's the only way I play now.

The only thing I've changed is the tech rate. I can't stand the fast pace of the standard game. I also changed the draft unhapiness as you suggested above, but I hardly ever draft so I have no opinion on its effects.

Hopefully in the next patch Firaxis will adopt your changes (although I seriously doubt it). I really hope they fix things that you can't fix with the editor though (Corruption model, especially for Communism, tech whoring, AI drafting, etc)

Most of your changes involve units. Have you given any thought on government changes for the MOD? (i.e. weaken Republic, strengthen Communism). The reduced draft unhapiness helps Communism, and I'm not sure if Republics need a commerce penalty like Monarchy (maybe reduced corruption to compensate) Hmmm... I'll try those changes in my next game.

	16-03-2002 02:40									#36
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HU! very expensive for only 14 units...

	16-03-2002 02:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by godinex HU! very expensive for only 14 units...

I don't think it's excessive. Look at the difference in unit strengths. And you don't HAVE to upgrade if you don't want to. But with this change you won't get the option to build swordsmen in the modern era. That's the most important effect!!

	16-03-2002 03:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Most of your changes involve units. Have you given any thought on government changes for the MOD? (i.e. weaken Republic, strengthen Communism). The reduced draft unhapiness helps Communism, and I'm not sure if Republics need a commerce penalty like Monarchy (maybe reduced corruption to compensate) Hmmm... I'll try those changes in my next game.

I am not sure what should be best solution.

Personnaly I would love to have a bigger differentiation between corruption in various governments.
And that something which isn't easily done in withiout patching.

I always thought that Commnism needs 150% (Workers unite!) effetcs for wokers, but I'm not sure will it make something unbalanced.

Trade bouns should stay for Republic (it doesn't have free unit upkeep).

Democracy is OK for Religious players, but it's a little risky for others.

Don't forget that I don't want to have: "use always Democry, it's best" solution.


Since I am not sure what needs to be tweaked witout making something brokern, I wan't chage anything about govements, but I'll support people to make their owen chages and post comment about it.

Then, I'll reconsider.

	16-03-2002 03:54									#39
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One advice for those who whant to tweak the rules:

Don't start MOD as Scenario, try to owerrite civ3mod.bic with MOD file.
That way you can make chges on the fly.
In the middle of the game.

Good for playtesting.

	16-03-2002 03:57									#40
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Democracy vs Republic is more like:

-don't want to risk: Republic
-risky builder: Democracy

	18-03-2002 20:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Democracy vs Republic is more like: -don't want to risk: Republic -risky builder: Democracy

Except that Democracy comes later in the tech tree, so it should be better overall than Republic. Anyway, I guess I agree with you that the governments aren't too imbalanced. (well, except for the way the AI uses Communism)

Another thing that I think is broken and can be fixed in the editor is espionage. It's way too expensive and not worth it as it is.

	20-03-2002 02:23									#42
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I won Space Race!

Unforunately, 2.5 times more expensive SS parts haven't acomplished what I was hoping.

It was again: "discover Laser and launch SS next turn".

Only difference is that I was building SS parts non-stop without pausing.
SS Engine (1600 Shileds) is finished in same time as "Laser part" (normally it is finished much sooner).

Also, AI was very passive in building SS parts.
They started to build 10 turns before I finished it, and haven't finished any of them (two AIs strted 1 part, and one AI strted 3 parts).


Here is the save before launch (Monarch, 8 civs, standard map).

Attachment: space victory, greeks.zip
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	20-03-2002 03:10									#43
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"Radar Artillery should now have correct movemnt of 2"

The only problem i see with this is radar artillery blitzing, or coming along your RR's with alot of rad artillery, using one movepoint to get in range of an AI city (usually they have a border of 2), and blowing the city to pieces, then taking it. With move of 1, u get in range and then the opponent can counterattack. 2 MP would make it a bit overpowering, and it could make MP a bit like the howie-blitzes of civ2.

I tried giving rad arty 2 move in my mod, and it made killing the AI too easy. In MP, it would make the endgame go to whoever can pump out more rad arty and MA's.

	20-03-2002 03:23									#44
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quote: Originally posted by simwiz2 "Radar Artillery should now have correct movemnt of 2" The only problem i see with this is radar artillery blitzing, or coming along your RR's with alot of rad artillery, using one movepoint to get in range of an AI city (usually they have a border of 2), and blowing the city to pieces, then taking it. With move of 1, u get in range and then the opponent can counterattack. 2 MP would make it a bit overpowering, and it could make MP a bit like the howie-blitzes of civ2. I tried giving rad arty 2 move in my mod, and it made killing the AI too easy. In MP, it would make the endgame go to whoever can pump out more rad arty and MA's.

Not realy.
With movment of 1 I am forced to use bombers, never Radar Artillery.
It's just silly to move these slow units if you have bombers.

Bomber are usually more effective then Radar Artillery.

Just look their picture. They are mobile.

This just makes then EVEN. Not better them Bombers.

And, I can assure you, it's not like Civ2 Howitzer.

You get them as end-tech anyway.
They are supposed to be powerfull.
And they are not overpowering.

	20-03-2002 03:53									#45
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And you can capture Radar Artillery.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!




P.S.
I've done some calculations.
Their bomber effectiveness is almost the SAME.

On the other side, you can protect yourself from bombers by Fighters.

But, you can also attack Artillery with your own mobile forces.

	20-03-2002 04:22									#46
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And it's a little diffcult to do enough damage in first blow.
(to invade with Armor)

Which makes couterattck more an option (MP speaking).
And devastating: ARTILLERY CAPTURE!!!!!!!!!!


P.S.
Historicaly, modern Artillery is a mobile force.

	20-03-2002 07:40									#47
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Agree completely that Radar Arty should have a movement of two. It's an MLRS, or at least tracked arty. These units today can "shooot", then "scoot" out of the way before counter-fire is called upon them. In Civ3, have found RA quite useless cos can move into position and fire in the same turn. Have made the change in my own mod, Homeworld.

	21-03-2002 03:21									#48
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Sevaral hours before this MOD had rating of 5.0
Now it has rating of 3.0

Talking about CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

If you don't like something.
Say that.

So we can discuss about that.

And maybe put some change.

---player1

	21-03-2002 15:50									#49
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New idea for fixing SS problem.
This one should be fair for AI too.

Life Support System should need Recycling.
Why? Just look civilopedia entry. In talkes about recycling too much.

Docking Bay should needs Robotic. Part which needs to be transformed to Space Station (before landing to Alpha Centauri) needs ROBOTIC ARMS, also that could help when loading things from space station in earth orbit (all this is in civilopedia).

Static Champer should need Genetic.
Why? To discover cyrogenic, human race needs advanced biology understanding, including genetic.

Whis way only pure military techs are not needed for SS like Stealth, Integrated Defense or Smart Weapons.

Also lowering SS cost to original values (160, 320, 640) would help AI to start building SS more often.



Next,
Idea for Longevity and Cure for Cancer tweaks.
It's not only Longevity the probelm.
Cure for Cancer 1 happy face is useless in modern times when civs have 6+ luxuries.

So upping Cure for Cancer to 3 HAPPY FACES would make it PREMIUM wonder, which it is supposed to be.
Longevity should be upgarded with 2 happy faces around the world.

That way Genetic would be imortant tech in modern world, as it is (historicaly).

And don't forget that these two wonders are two MOST EXPENSIVE WONDERS in Civ3. They should be a GOOD wonders.


What do you think?
Comments needed.

	21-03-2002 23:44									#50
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Yes, the two wonders you're talking about are definitely not as strong as they need to be. I usually build cure for cancer as it is, but that's only because I like to build ALL the wonders, especially those that give happiness.

I really like your idea of changing some of the SS component required advances to force the player to complete more research before launching. The only argument against that might be that it takes away the ability to win by building the SS if you are behind in technology. Say some civ is kicking your butt and is ready to win by domination or culture, so it doesn't bother starting the SS. You might manage to beat him by launching the SS even if you are behind in every category. Civ3 seems to have been designed to always give you a chance to win even if you are behind (tech devaluations, combat system with no hit points, etc). On the other hand, as it is now, the easy SS makes it the most common type of victory. Your changes make it more difficult to build, so we might get more variety in game endings.

So, in general, my feedback is that I agree with your changes (as usual )

	22-03-2002 00:20									#51
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OK!

If there are no complains or serious unbalances by idea I proposed,
you can expect next version of MOD tomorow.


About SS:
I always considered that you need good tech & industrial power to somplete the SS. That was in Civ2. So let it be in Civ3.

Anyway if somebody needs *cheap* victory he can try Diplomatic victory.


P.S.
Just note: SS part will have original cost, since more expensive version had discouraged AI from building SS (All for AI! Do I talk like Soren?)

	22-03-2002 17:52									#52
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VERSION 1.1 IS OUT!!!

Downlaod from first page of the thread.

CHAGES:

Life Support System needs Recycling.
Why? Just look civilopedia entry. In talkes about recycling too much.

Docking Bay needs Robotic. Part which needs to be transformed to Space Station (before landing to Alpha Centauri) needs ROBOTIC ARMS, also that could help when loading things from space station in earth orbit (all this is in civilopedia).

Statis Champer should need Genetic.
Why? To discover cyrogenic, human race needs advanced biology understanding, including genetic.

With these chages only pure military techs are not needed for SS like Stealth, Integrated Defense or Smart Weapons.

This will make end game more interesting. Players will have time to use some more advanced techs before finishing Space Ship.

Also SS cost is lowered to original values (160, 320, 640), since that helps AI to start building SS more often (which wasn't the case in earlier versions when SS components were 2.5 times more expensive).


Longevity and Cure for Cancer tweaks:

Longevity is not enough usefull in modern age (and sometimes it gives more probelms then in helps). Also, Cure for Cancer 1 happy face is useless in modern times when civs have 6+ luxuries.

So upping Cure for Cancer effect to 3 HAPPY FACES will make it PREMIUM wonder, which it is supposed to be.

Longevity will be upgarded with 2 happy faces around the world. In combo with old effect this will make it a very good wonder.

This way Genetic will be imortant tech in modern world, as it is (historicaly).

And don't forget that these two wonders are two MOST EXPENSIVE WONDERS in Civ3. They should be a GOOD wonders.

	26-03-2002 06:19									#53
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nice.. I'm still in the middle of the middle-ages, playing as the Russians (and ~20 turns away from Mil. Tradition ), so I haven't seen too many of the changes. I did notice however the French (my neighbours to the north) building a lot more Musketeers, and conveniently declaring war on me and nearly taking 2 cities with them (thank god that I was using this area as a staging point to send 30 units to the zulus.. now those units are busy fighting the French). good work

	27-03-2002 03:03									#54
	Espionage hurts your pocket Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Has anyone ever used the propaganda option to convert an enemy city? Has anyone actually succeeded?

I used it in (unsuccessfully) my first game a couple of times. But it is so expensive that I have never even bothered since then.

I propose to cut the base cost of propaganda by 2/3, from 100 to 65. I also think planting spies is too expensive, given the high probablility of failure, and the risk involved in making the other civ mad. So I think the base cost of both planting and exposing a spy should be reduced by 2/3 also.

I would also not be opposed to reducing all other espionage options by 10-20%.

Any thoughts?

	27-03-2002 16:32									#55
	Re: Espionage hurts your pocket Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by alexman Has anyone ever used the propaganda option to convert an enemy city? Has anyone actually succeeded? I used it in (unsuccessfully) my first game a couple of times. But it is so expensive that I have never even bothered since then. I propose to cut the base cost of propaganda by 2/3, from 100 to 65. I also think planting spies is too expensive, given the high probablility of failure, and the risk involved in making the other civ mad. So I think the base cost of both planting and exposing a spy should be reduced by 2/3 also. I would also not be opposed to reducing all other espionage options by 10-20%. Any thoughts?

Dont forget steal tech.



Although I haven't idea which values would be optimal.

	28-03-2002 06:34									#56
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alexman, have used espionage. Bloody useless. Fail way too often and deplete my treasury for very little gain. player1 and alexman, how do I reduce the cost of espionage in the game? Thanx!

	28-03-2002 06:59									#57
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Open the MOD file with the Civ3 editor. Select "Diplomats and Spies" from the drop-down menu on the toolbar. A large dialog comes up. Reduce the number in the "base cost" field for each diplomat/spy mission.

Completely different subject: It's frustrating how short the age of sail is in this game. Especially now with the increased tech trading, steam power is discovered very fast after the middle ages end (scientific civs get it for free sometimes, and trade it to everyone). So I made a change that I am testing right now:

Ironclad (4-4-3) is available with industialization.
(reduced movement and become available later)

Ironclads did not last very long in history at all. In fact, I don't know of any examples where they were used besides during the American civil war. When they were used they were slow, and they were not meant to be used for crossing oceans. Their main purpose was bombardment of coastal cities. Ironclads are too important and too powerful in Civ3, and they spoil the sailing age.

What do you think? Will they become completely useless now?

	28-03-2002 10:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Ironclad (4-4-3) is available with industialization. (reduced movement and become available later) ... What do you think? Will they become completely useless now?

I've heard that some people (including some released mods) limit ironclads to coastal only. Ironclads of the type visually depicted in Civ3 were prone to swamp if in open ocean. Limiting them to coastal tiles would force the bulk of your navy to be sailed vessels, especially if you're doing an intercontinental invasion.

	28-03-2002 14:23									#59
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Problem with Ironclad is:
That is you limit it at coastland, it would also limit AI.
He'll stop building sails (at least he won't disband them), and build ironclads.
And bye, bye AI intercontinental invasions.


P.S.
Ironclads were usefull ships in history.
It's only problem that there is a blur line between them and early Battleships (dreadnoughts)

Although Monitor class ships were moslty used in rivers.
But thre are other Ironclads (non monitors).
All those steam-powered ships in late 19ths and ealy 20ths.

	30-03-2002 01:24									#60
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GREAT NEWS

I'll annouce that this MOD is FIRST mod that is posted at official Civ3 site.

Link:
www.civ3.com/mods.cfm

P.S.
It's version 1.03 for now, new version 1.1 is downloadable here at this thread.