03-04-2002 03:16									#62
	Put an end to popups!

If anybody cares, version downloadable from www.civ3.com site is updated to v1.1 (same as here on Apolyton)
It only has different name: "Player1 MOD"

	03-04-2002 03:48									#63
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Player 1, since you have been in contact with Firaxis, do you know if they are considering actually implementing any of this in the patch?

Or does the fact that they have put it out as a MOD pretty much say that they consider your changes interesting but not worth implementing in the official version? (Otherwise, why would they put a MOD on their site that will be no different than the un-modded version in a couple of weeks?)

PS. I reduced the movement of the ironclad by 1 and made it available with Industrialization, and I'm loving it!

	03-04-2002 03:56									#64
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Player 1, since you have been in contact with Firaxis, do you know if they are considering actually implementing any of this in the patch? Or does the fact that they have put it out as a MOD pretty much say that they consider your changes interesting but not worth implementing in the official version? (Otherwise, why would they put a MOD on their site that will be no different than the un-modded version in a couple of weeks?) PS. I reduced the movement of the ironclad by 1 and made it available with Industrialization, and I'm loving it!

No they haven't said anything about patch.

But they did said that they like the MOD.

Main reson why this is first MOD on official site is that Firaxis doesn't know a good way to make custom MODs with lots of files easy to install.
That prevented them from posting MODs like Korns blitz or Balancer.

	10-04-2002 16:26									#65
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ovo je prvi mod koji cu da probam. zvuci jako zanimljivo i drzim ti fige

	10-04-2002 17:31									#66
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso ovo je prvi mod koji cu da probam. zvuci jako zanimljivo i drzim ti fige

Hvala!

	10-04-2002 23:51									#67
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Looks very interesting. I think I might try this one. I've been hesitant to try mods because:

a) I'm fairly happy with how the game works, but admit there is room for improvement. That's why I like your mod. I like your mentality of minimal changes to the greatest power.

b) Some are so complex, they are tough to start with. Maybe I'm a bit lazy, but I can read your descriptions & gain an instant understanding of how it would improve the game. (i.e. I am not as eager to judge against).

Keep up the good work.

One thing I was 50-50 on is the increased stats for the ground units (musketeer, rifleman, infantry). I like the decreased cost of the musketman, but am not yet fully convinced of the need for upping them. Perhaps, it's the way I play, using musketmen already for a desparate offensive. Upping them also has the ripple effect & I like the balance...

Last edited by chiefpaco on 12-04-2002 at 08:32

	16-04-2002 02:00									#68
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New version of MOD is out!
Download from first page of this thread.


Changes in ver 1.11

Cost of Steal Tech and Propaganda spying missions is HALVED.
This makes those missions more usefull, but not abusive (like in Civ2).

That way Steal Tech could be usefull mission in early stage of game, but not always because of argessive tech trading in 1.17 patch. Still it would be worth if you are in war with everybody. Also, since mission cost DOESN'T depend from tech commercial price, sometimes it's still better to buy those techs.

Propaganda becomes more viable option, but it still fails often against culturaly superior civilizations (as it should). Democracy immunity becomes more important.

	16-04-2002 02:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by player1 That way Steal Tech could be usefull mission in early stage of game, but not always because of argessive tech trading in 1.17 patch.

I hope cheaper tech stealing will be always useful in 1.21.

	17-04-2002 22:14									#70
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Sounds like good changes in 1.11. Also noticed a tweak or 2 of yours that made it into patch 1.21! Good work!

I just finished my first game using your 1.1. Good game, I won as the Zulu with a space race in 1730 after researching Robotics on Emporer, 1.17f. I made only 1 overall change to your mod before starting:

- changed the musketman, musketeer, rifleman, & infantry back to their old a/d/m. I liked their balance before. However, I kept the reduced cost you included for the musketman & it turned out well.

Here's some comments from my game, & basically, I enjoyed it:

- Modern tanks are better balanced. Didn't think I'd get to test them until England decalred war on me late. Some great battles by tanks & mech infantry. Well balanced. Looked like we built both equally.

- Researching more modern techs in different trees was also awesome! Extended the game past the first 7-8 techs of the modern age. It still was a race to the SS parts as I had severe competition from China (about 1/2 my size but still powerful). Trying to figure out why France, the same size as me, did not seem interested (but it happens in other games too).

- Built the cure for cancer & longevity for the 1st time because it was the first time I've ever researched Genetics. Good. Still maybe not perfect because the SS victory is pretty close at hand. Basically, most of my games in the modern era result in the 1st civ to get all the SS techs win the next turn. Not my fav part of the game, but at least you've made it better.

- There were few 'legacy' units available. Good work.

- No one researched amphibious assault or advanced flight. Not sure why. I didn't get to test Paratroopers & Marines then.

- Used some jet fighters in bombing missions. Seemed good.

- Not sure if wealth is a bit overpowered in the modern era. Some cities can really churn out gold (I had 1 with the Iron works & nuclear plant).

- Liked the taxmen & scientist changes. Adds strategy to the early game when a double-beaker scientist really adds up.

1 thing I am still concerned about with the game in general, is the speed of research that correlates to the difficulty level. I maybe will try to increase the research rates by the proportion of the AI bonus so that the game still later on higher difficulty levels. As it is now, I finished the Space race in 1730. Increasing the rate should also give units (especially the ancient ones) a longer lifespan. i.e. I won't be hitting Chivalry before building a horseman.

	18-04-2002 02:33									#71
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Some thing about incoming Firaxis 1.21 patch.

I'll make new version of my MOD.

But first, I need to play standard 1.21 game to see which of my chages have become unnessesary

After that I'll probably make 1.21 version of this MOD.

Especialy since I haven't seen any unit stats balance tweaks in 1.21 readme.

On the other hand, maybe they aren't mentoned in readme.

	20-04-2002 17:58									#72
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Version 1.2 is here!
Compatibile with 1.21f patch.
Download from first page of this thread.

Changes in ver 1.2

All things converted in 1.21f patch format.
Musketmen has both defense & offense AI flag selected.

	20-04-2002 19:24									#73
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Now I'll give your mod really a try. In fact, I will play my first 1.21 game with your 'patch suggestions'.

	21-04-2002 04:03									#74
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Finished my first game with v1.21/PS 1.2. Regent, space victory in 1998. The additional tech requirements for spaceship parts made the modern era more interesting (although still boring), and I actually researched the entire tech tree for the first time. IMO, increasing the costs of SS parts would also enhance gameplay - maybe by a factor of 1.5, so that the AI still tries to build them. Overall, I enjoyed your mod very much.

P.S.: It's especially nice not to have longbowmen and the Strategic Missile Defense in the build menu at the same time.

	23-04-2002 02:24									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

Still using your mod for 1.21. Good work. Love the fix that Firaxis made the tech tree look good while using Mods as scenarios.

1 question. How do you use Bowmen, strategically? I just wondered if most people build bowmen rather than spearmen, cause that's what I do. I wondered if it would be right to somehow take spearmen out of the Babylonian AI's queue. In my last game, I saw Babylon invade with Bowmen & spearmen & I thought it was a bit strange...

Know what I mean? Or do people build spearmen too cause they upgrade to pikemen?

	23-04-2002 17:51									#76
	Inflate your Upload Space

that suggestion about making spaceship even more expensive

	23-04-2002 18:49									#77
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso that suggestion about making spaceship even more expensive

Hmm, when I had SS costs 2.5 times more expenisve AI didn't even tried to build them.
SS victory was easy.

But maybe someting like 250, 500, 1000 could work?
(aprox. +50% cost)

Could somebody test this since I don't have enough time to try this myself?

	23-04-2002 18:54									#78
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chiefpaco 1 question. How do you use Bowmen, strategically? I just wondered if most people build bowmen rather than spearmen, cause that's what I do. I wondered if it would be right to somehow take spearmen out of the Babylonian AI's queue. In my last game, I saw Babylon invade with Bowmen & spearmen & I thought it was a bit strange... Know what I mean? Or do people build spearmen too cause they upgrade to pikemen?

Normally, some people go for Spearmen because they upgrade to Pikemen.
But, since this MOD upgrades Longbowmen to Riflemen, maybe having Bowmen defenders could be a good idea.

I think that AI will also use bowmen defensively in 1.21f patch, since they have selected both Offense and Defense AI flags. Same for Legions.

	23-04-2002 19:25									#79
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Taking bowmen out of the queue would be a good thing, except what if someone doesn't want to use bowmen to avoid triggering a Golden Age early?

	24-04-2002 00:46									#80
	Re: MOD: Patch suggestion MOD Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by player1 In standard game Wealth is heavily underrated. Wealth income doubled (4 prod. to 1 gold before ecomony, 2 to 1 after).

I didn't notice this change until now, and would like to know why you think wealth is underrated that much.

	24-04-2002 01:00									#81
	Re: MOD: Patch suggestion MOD Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by player1 Life Support System needs Recycling. Why? Just look civilopedia entry. It talks about recycling too much. Docking Bay needs Robotic. Part which needs to be transformed to Space Station (before landing to Alpha Centauri) needs ROBOTIC ARMS, also that could help when loading things from space station in earth orbit (all this is in civilopedia). Statis Champer should need Genetic. Why? To discover cyrogenic, human race needs advanced biology understanding, including genetic. With these chages only pure military techs are not needed for SS like Stealth, Integrated Defense or Smart Weapons.

While I completely agree with you regarding Recycling and Genetics being Spaceship prereqs, I'd suggest to drop Robotics for gameplay reasons. It should be a tough choice for the player to forgo Robotics - and therefore manufacturing plants which could speed up construction of at least some SS parts.

	24-04-2002 01:18									#82
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Wealth is useless in pre-economy era, sine it gives one gold for 8 shields.
(1 for 4 in this MOD). Most ancient cities don't even have 8 shields.

Although new settings give 1 for 2 (was 1 for 4) in modern and industial era, this actually makes wealth usefull alternative to building units after all building are built.

Strategic choice (after most building are built): units or wealth

Rememer that in Civ2 is was one for one.

And I don't think that wealth needs to be placeholder, until you get new building tech.



As for Robotics, in stadard game I usuly don't even research Robortic while building spaceship.

Remember that if you don't need Robotic, you also won't need minaturization.
And if I have to choose between these 2 techs or some which gives SS parts, I would NOT research those 2 techs.

	24-04-2002 01:39									#83
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Wealth is useless in pre-economy era, sine it gives one gold for 8 shields. (1 for 4 in this MOD). Most ancient cities don't even have 8 shields.

AFAIK, wealth is rounded up, so you would get at least 1 gold even if you don't have 8 shields.

quote: Rememer that in Civ2 is was one for one.

I can't remember how it was in Civ2. Obviously, you have a point here.

quote: Remember that if you don't need Robotic, you also won't need minaturization. And if I have to choose between these 2 techs or some which gives SS parts, I would NOT research those 2 techs.

Unless you also changed the tech tree, you WILL need miniaturization because it is the prereq for genetics.

	24-04-2002 02:35									#84
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by lockstep AFAIK, wealth is rounded up, so you would get at least 1 gold even if you don't have 8 shields.

Yes, that true.
By making this change you'll get 2 gold for 8 shields.
Not realy much, but anything higher would be unbalancing in modern are.

This way with 2 for 1 in modern you could get a lot of gold form 60+ shield city, but you'll have less Tanks, which woud counterbalance that.

quote: Unless you also changed the tech tree, you WILL need miniaturization because it is the prereq for genetics.

You are right about this one.
But most of expensive SS parts techs are discovered early.

So removeing Docking Bays form Robotic won't make though choice.

Most expenisve parts would probaly be completed before that.


Hmm, it would be interesting to forget about Sythetic and Space Fligh and go straight for Robotics.

	26-04-2002 04:58									#85
	one minor update Increase Your PM Length

Version 1.22 is OUT!
Download form first page of this thread.


Changes in ver 1.22

After some playtesting I concluded that 50% cost for steal tech spy mission is just too low.
So I upped it to 70%. It's still more usefull to "safely" steal tech then buy, if only one civ has that tech. Usefullness increases in industrial and modern age, when this option is usefull even when 2 or 3 civs have that tech.

	26-04-2002 23:12									#86
	Re: one minor update Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by player1 After some playtesting I concluded that 50% cost for steal tech spy mission is just too low. So I upped it to 70%.

So tech stealing is useful after all? And how about the other spy missions?

	27-04-2002 01:59									#87
	Re: Re: one minor update Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by lockstep So tech stealing is useful after all? And how about the other spy missions?

Propagada cost is Halved.

Other mission are usefull as they are. (I used them before)
Maybe not steal map. But, it's rely not importatnt.

Steal plans is a great thing.
Althouigh is could be costly.

	27-04-2002 23:18									#88
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player1, what are your actual values for all the Espionage missions?

I had steal plans at 2 (20%) and that is definitely too low since all you have to do is go 100% money and just safely steal tech all the time.

I have steal plans at 20% too.

The rest don't seem so important.

	27-04-2002 23:39									#89
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double post sorry

Last edited by =DrJambo= on 28-04-2002 at 00:05

	28-04-2002 01:45									#90
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Steal plans or steal tech?

Steal plans I left with defualt values.
This order is very important in waging war, so I haven't made it cheaper.
It still does pay off when planning attacks on small nations (small cost).
As for larger nations, maybe using recon air missions is a better idea (and spy city too).



Steal tech is at 7 = 70% of original.

From my analysis:

at start of the medivial era:
Safe steal tech = buying tech form only nation which has that tech (no devaluation). Doesn't pay of if more then one nation have that tech.

in the middle of industrial era:
Safe steal tech = buying tech form one of only TWO nations which have that tech (devaluation included). So it pays off when one (a lot) or two nations have that tech. Maybe even if 3 nations have it if some less safe method is used.

in the modern era:
even more beneficial

Anyway in more modern ages tech steal becomes more important.
And it pays of a lot if only one civ has needed tech (you save a lot).


SAFE steal is realy a safe steal (very low chance of failure, if ANY), but trick is too have enough of NET GOLD, not gold per turn (which counterbalances this nicely.


Propaganda has HALVED cost.

Other missions are unchanged.