10-03-2002 09:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune First of all, prove he really *did* hit any civilians.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/...News.44481.html

quote: Second, in a combat situation, with the odds 10:1 against me, I wouldnÂīt waste time on civilians, so itÂīs really unlikely he targeted them on purpose. Much more likely he used them as shields, and they got hit by the panicked Israelis; this I would find believable.

That's really likely to happen when you use a sniper rifle, and it's even more likely that they'd hit the shields but not him.

quote: DonÂīt be silly; they do what they think is helping their cause, and within their means.

Yes, their cause is to kill Jews. That much has already been known. As PA television tells us "blessed is whoever sticks a bullet in a Jew's head." "Strike them everywhere they are found . . ." etc.

quote: I called no one a Nazi. I use my words with care. I said I donÂīt hold those who fight for Sharon and Bush in a higher regard than those who fought for Hitler. This says nothing about their ideology.

In short, you said they are as bad as SS men. Don't you think that's a rather insulting form of libelous falsehood, or did we portray Hitler as a mass-murderer just for opposing America?

Oh, and your beloved Saddam: He cooperated with the CIA in the 50s, exterminated the Kurds in the 80s, and slaughtered tens of thousands in the nineties. That's without mentioning the thousands sent home in sealed coffins after his secret police finished with them.

	10-03-2002 09:01									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Oh, my mistake. I apologize.

Sure, no problem

	10-03-2002 09:10									#33
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CT is an absolute moron troll.


The more these cowardly little suicide attacks happen, the more pal's will get wasted. CT doesnt care about pal's...... He just wants some reasons for his deluted anti-US views.

	10-03-2002 09:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Natan In short, you said they are as bad as SS men.

Their cause is as bad. Donīt forget what the Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged for: Crimes against Peace in the first place.

quote: He cooperated with the CIA in the 50s, exterminated the Kurds in the 80s, and slaughtered tens of thousands in the nineties. That's without mentioning the thousands sent home in sealed coffins after his secret police finished with them.

If you agree everyone cooperating with the CIA deserves to be hanged, I agree hanging Saddam. The rest are dubious allegations that donīt come from impartial sources.

	10-03-2002 09:22									#35
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quote: He cooperated with the CIA in the 50s, exterminated the Kurds in the 80s, and slaughtered tens of thousands in the nineties. That's without mentioning the thousands sent home in sealed coffins after his secret police finished with them.

The same goes on in Turkey, are you gonna bomb it too?

	10-03-2002 10:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Their cause is as bad. Donīt forget what the Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged for: Crimes against Peace in the first place.

As the son of a U.S. Marine and a Officer-Cadet at Texas A&M, I am amazingly offended by your statements in this thread. Starting with "Doing Bush's and Sharon's dirty work.", which is B.S. Had Bush not ordered military action Al Qaeda and it's primary supporter, he would have been lynched and rightfully so. Whatever you may say about Sharon, he's seen action so it isn't as if he's sending boys to do things he hadn't done.

Your statements implied that American Servicemen and women are just as bad as Nazis. Must make you feel pretty superior, bashing Servicemen who put their lives on the line to defend the United States Constitution, in order to insure that freedom continues both here and abroad. Your statements reflect a cold, heartless person who either hasn't seen suffering first hand, or just doesn't care. It's people like you who gleefully propagate hate, supporting those who intentionally kill innocent civilians.

quote: If you agree everyone cooperating with the CIA deserves to be hanged, I agree hanging Saddam. The rest are dubious allegations that donīt come from impartial sources.

If that isn't a case of the Kettle complaing of the pot's complexition, I don't know what is. Take a glance at your OP, you heartless bastard.

	10-03-2002 10:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Must make you feel pretty superior, bashing Servicemen who put their lives on the line to defend the United States Constitution, in order to insure that freedom continues both here and abroad.

BS, and you know it. Neither Iraq nor Iran nor North Korea are threatening to attack the United States. Not even the Taliban have attacked the United States. Their harbouring terrorists is something we have only your word for. If China says Taiwan is harbouring terrorists -letīs say they had a halfway plausible case- would you allow China invading Taiwan? The US themselves harbored terrorists -the Contras- so what makes you morally fit to judge the Taliban?

quote: If that isn't a case of the Kettle complaing of the pot's complexition, I don't know what is.

I donīt know what you are talking about. I am not connected to the CIA. Not that I knew of.

	10-03-2002 10:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune BS, and you know it. Neither Iraq nor Iran nor North Korea are threatening to attack the United States.

Both Iran and Iraq's leaders have publically called for all of Islam to rain Holy Hell down upon the USA. Iran is still the world's largest backer of terrorism.

North Korea is setting itself up so that it can be in the position to threaten the USA. We know for sure it has missiles that can hit all of Alaska, so even with just that they could create chaos with out domestic oil supplies by pasting Valdez. Certainly, there's no other logical reason for N. Korea to devolpe such long range missiles, it isn't as if the country's big enough to necessitate launching comm satillites into orbit.

quote: Not even the Taliban have attacked the United States.

No, just yank American aid workers off the street and imprision them.

quote: Their harbouring terrorists is something we have only your word for.

And the Afghan government, and Britain's, and carious tapes discovered their with Usama Bin Laden talking about terrorist actions against the United States.

	10-03-2002 10:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Iran is still the world's largest backer of terrorism.

The legitimate self-defense of the Palestinian people is not terrorism.

quote: Certainly, there's no other logical reason for N. Korea to devolpe such long range missiles.

Maybe they want to sell them. Why do you develop long-range missiles? Does that justify attacking you?

quote: No, just yank American aid workers off the street and imprision them.

You say the US has never arrested a foreigner?

quote: And the Afghan government, and Britain's, and carious tapes discovered their with Usama Bin Laden talking about terrorist actions against the United States.

He applauded the actions. He didnīt say he was behind them. This is covered by Free Speech, like it or not.

	10-03-2002 12:28									#40
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quote: The legitimate self-defense of the Palestinian people is not terrorism.

I have never been able to understand how one side in Israel can say it's defending itself and at the same time say that the other side isn't. They've both killed civilians, they've both lied and they've both committed acts of terrorism. One side committing a wrong doesn't mean the other side should too.

quote: Originally CT's signature Free Slobo, lock up George

Are you saying by this that they should arrest an elected President of the USA and release someone who is currently on trial for genocide? Slobo will be released if he's found innocent. And my own personal view is that he's as guilty as hell. And the President of the US cannot be arrested unless he is impeached first.

	10-03-2002 13:02									#41
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quote: The legitimate self-defense of the Palestinian people is not terrorism.

Targetting innocent civilians is terrorism, regardless of which euphemisms you prefer to use for these reprehensible acts.

quote: The rest are dubious allegations that donīt come from impartial sources.

Tell me, what do you consider "impartial sources?"

quote: Yet what the PLO does is intentionally inflict as much damage on the Jewish population as they can.

While it's true that Arafat isn't making a real effort at taking down the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc., there is no reason to believe that he's actually supporting these people himself.

	10-03-2002 22:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Their cause is as bad.

If you don't want to apologize fine. As long as you admit that you're not a decent human being.

quote: DonÂīt forget what the Nazis at Nuremberg were hanged for: Crimes against Peace in the first place.

I think we both know that charge was invented as a catch all. No one was punished for that crime alone.

quote: If you agree everyone cooperating with the CIA deserves to be hanged, I agree hanging Saddam. The rest are dubious allegations that donÂīt come from impartial sources.

You know, the existence of the camps wasn't uncovered by impartial sources, but it did happen. 100-200 thousand Kurds were killed. The man responsible, Ali Hassan al-Majid, admits as much and has been caught on audiotape discusisng the massacres with Saddam.


Ramo: Most of the recent suicide bombings in Israel, including the most recent one and the synagogue bombing, have been perpetrated by Fatah's military wing. The more militant branches of Fatah also engage in joint training and possibly joint operations with Hamas.

	10-03-2002 22:39									#43
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I find a post from an Austrian celebrating the killing of Jews to be profoundly unsettling. It's particularily revealing that this person, in his signature, offers support to a man who attempted to exile and exterminate a group of Muslims. Wecan therefore draw the conclusion that the "Comrad" is less supportive of the cause of the (muslim) Palestinians as he is in favor of the murder of Jews. Perhapes he should change his user name to "Kamrade".

	10-03-2002 22:52									#44
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He's not anti-semitic. This I have no doubt of.

He's just a very deranged person who has been brainwashed by his ultra left "trash the west" sources.

Having lived in the USSR, and having parents who lived there, I know that many communist power sources will not stop short of lying and distorting whatever they can get their hands on.

The USSR lied about everything it could, to the outside world, and to it's people. It's close allies, the national arab countries, such as Syria, Iraq, PA etc. are all behaving much in the same manner.

The problem is that westerners are gullible and think that for some reason they are always told the truth.

	10-03-2002 23:05									#45
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I get the feeling people will stop taking him seriously in a very short while. Does anybody still actually get worked up when Wiggy goes off, or do they just play with him a little bit?

	10-03-2002 23:26									#46
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I get the feeling people will stop taking him seriously in a very short while. Does anybody still actually get worked up when Wiggy goes off, or do they just play with him a little bit?

Peopel are still taking him seriously? I stopped a long time ago.

	10-03-2002 23:26									#47
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I get the feeling people will stop taking him seriously in a very short while. Does anybody still actually get worked up when Wiggy goes off, or do they just play with him a little bit?

Why not just add him to the ignore list. He is a bad troll. he only uses tradegies and news to self-justify his sick anti-American ego.


Lastly its sad he holds such views.


Even when you've beat him on all points in a basic ME arguement. And its clear he looks like the jackass, he throws out a stinkers like "Look what they did in lebanon" or..."Israel is a terrorist".

Its all Bullshit...

CT its pretty clear serouis axe to grind with USA. So I think it would be wise CT, that if you wish to be taken serouisly anymore; you stop this ridicoulous trolls and explain yourself a little better. And actually make some kind of Case.

	10-03-2002 23:34									#48
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I find this thread somewhat puzzling.

One the one hand, I agree with CT. I certainly think it is an improvement if Palistinian terrorists/freedom-fighters (call them what you will) target the Israeli military, and not civilians. And that is certainly how this incident appears. I cannot see how people can condemn this episode in one breath and in the next condone Israeli incursions into Palestine which leave tens of (Palestinian) civilians dead each time. Yet this seems to be the train of thought of some of the posters here.

On the other hand, I deplore violence of any form. I regret all loss of life - including the Taliban soldiers - because it would be far better if 'evil-doers' could be taught the error of their ways and be led to constructive lives. Of course, I realize that it is naive to think that this will be accomplished, but every death is an admission of defeat.

As for the Palestine situation, I wonder what would happen if the Palestinian terror groups got their act together and made a statement that they would only strike at Israeli military targets. If they then kept to this goal, would this create support for Palestine against Israel from the rest of the world? Or would they still be condemned because they are muslims commiting acts of violence? Would this make any difference to the peace process?

	10-03-2002 23:59									#49
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RJ I would have more respect for palestine if these groups attacked Merkava's, Border posts, Soldiers, and Checkpoints. Not Sbarro pizza's, Synagogue's, and Crowded bus stops.




In my opinion. You cannot compare what Israel is doing to what the palestinians are doing. Israel is acting with amazing restraint...Bombing Empty police buildings, bulldozing tents, and warning people to stay in there homes....When Israel detains pal's. They are questioned and released. When Pal's detain israeli's. They are stabbed and thrown out of window's like what happened last year.



What the hell kind of response is that may I ask? If they wanted to. They could retake the whole the West Bank in 4 hours, easily. So if you say Israel is not trying restraining itself you are knowingly ignorant of the facts in this conflict.

Again, I also add that Barak offered 95%+ of the west bank & Gaza @ camp david. Arafat said no, and said in arabic that the palestinian flag would be placed over both Jerusalems. This is absurd...He is to blame. He is the terrorist.


And I would like to point out that there is absolutely no moral high-ground left in the middle east. Dont try to seek any...because it isnt there. Im not saying both sides are evil or anything. Im saying dont point fingers, everybody is to blame.

As for the Israeli's, im with em' 100%, I feel for them. There brave people, not letting terrorist scum scare them.

finally If Yassir can't control terrorist's now. He cant control terrorists in a seperate palestinian state. So Israel, only being a nation no wider than Long Island...has every reason to be concerned who there neighbors are.

	11-03-2002 00:15									#50
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quote: As for the Palestine situation, I wonder what would happen if the Palestinian terror groups got their act together and made a statement that they would only strike at Israeli military targets. If they then kept to this goal, would this create support for Palestine against Israel from the rest of the world? Or would they still be condemned because they are muslims commiting acts of violence? Would this make any difference to the peace process?

If you haven't understood this already , this not the matter of getting their act together. Since they , as all other muslim terrorists have no respect for human life. The word 'noncombatant' doesn't exist in their vocabulary.

	11-03-2002 01:24									#51
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Hello

Can`t believe that i have missed so many good arguments. Anyway...........

Let me make some things clear from where i stand. I am not pro Israeli and i think that the settlements and the occupation is wrong.

I don`t believe that Israeli`s seek to kill Civilians or are careless with regard to civilian lives.

I do believe that the palestinians are so desparate and hopeless that they have allowed the maniacs to deform their society.

IMO each loss of life is a blow to everyone concerned. None can be acceptable, and no access can be justified.

I was interested to hear about this peace proposal suggested by some Saudi about Israeli withdrawal for normalisation of relations with the Arab world. Are their any Israeli`s or pro`s who can give their take on this. I would like to get a broader picture of how this was viewed.

	11-03-2002 09:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I have never been able to understand how one side in Israel can say it's defending itself and at the same time say that the other side isn't. They've both killed civilians, they've both lied and they've both committed acts of terrorism. One side committing a wrong doesn't mean the other side should too.

You are subscribing to the fashionable hypothesis that there is no such thing as just or unjust war. I disagree. I consider the Palestinian cause just, Israelīs not. That they are using similar means is irrelevant.

quote: Slobo will be released if he's found innocent.

The tribunal itself is illegal. It should be dismissed.

	11-03-2002 09:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Tell me, what do you consider "impartial sources?"

You are nitpicking, but OK: I should have said: The accusations against Saddam come from his mortal enemies, and cannot be taken at face value by any means.

	11-03-2002 09:48									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Natan If you don't want to apologize fine. As long as you admit that you're not a decent human being.

Apologize to war criminals? Are you out of your mind?

quote: I think we both know that charge was invented as a catch all.

Interesting to see you use the 'arguments' of Nazi revisionists.

	11-03-2002 09:59									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I find a post from an Austrian celebrating the killing of Jews to be profoundly unsettling.

I celebrate the victory of a freedom fighter over colonial occupation soldiers. That they were Jews is of no relevance to me. Itīs of great relevance to you, obviously; as is the fact that I am Austrian. I am pretty sure that such things as 'race' and 'nation' are concepts that mean more to you than they mean to me. Which is the answer to what you imply.

quote: It's particularily revealing that this person, in his signature, offers support to a man who attempted to exile and exterminate a group of Muslims.

Milosevic did nothing of that sort. He was/is resisting neocolonialism. As such, his position deserves support, just like the Palestinians. I am glad you indirectly admit that my motives are obviously not racist. They are political.

	11-03-2002 10:06									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov He's not anti-semitic. This I have no doubt of. He's just a very deranged person ...

Hmmm. That you sincerely admit I am not anti-semitic deserves kudos. And that you say I am very deranged I wonīt hold against you. I think in your world-view 'seriously leftist' is synonymous with 'very deranged'; so I consider that a compliment, sort of. If you wouldnīt consider me 'very deranged' that would mean Iīm not serious enough.

	11-03-2002 10:44									#57
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Certainly I dont think anyone in the arab world, other than governments, will condemn Saddam for launching a few Anthrax Scud's at Tel-Aviv. And if he failed ; certainly they wouldnt blame him for trying. He has warheads...a few. Thats a given. He most probably has WoD. If his power is threatened, he'll do it.

These next few months are critical. If we go after Saddam.....Israel should be ready.



ps. Not sure if this is right thread.

	11-03-2002 11:29									#58
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quote: Believe me, I think what Israel does is wrong. They are hypocrites in their own right. Yet what the PLO does is intentionally inflict as much damage on the Jewish population as they can.

It's a war... civilans get targetted in modern war. Look at Sherman in the Civil War, The Brits and Americans in bombings of Dunkirk and Hiroshima & Nagasaki, Vietnam.

Good news is that Sharon's popularity is under 50%. Happens when you promise peace and stability, and then you destabilize the situation and escalate it.

It's going to get a LOT worse for Israel before it gets better. Hell, Powell even critisized them sharply the other day.

	11-03-2002 12:22									#59
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Comrade, forgive me for being blunt, but how do your strenuous efforts to defend the actions of this so-called Palestinian "Rob Roy" help matters except to enflame the Israeli posters here???

Our efforts should be directed instead to finding ways to end the violence and constructing a durable peace so these kinds of things can't happen anymore, so that future generations in the Middle East need not suffer the terrible folly of the present.

Your uncanny ability to craft sophistry is neither admirable nor is it sane. It is totally in defiance of the grave reality which is now descending upon humanity as a whole. Civilization simply will not survive a new Hundred Years' War (it barely survived the first), which is where the current Israeli-Palestinian violence and the perpetual so-called "war on terror" are threatening to take us. We must confront this paradox head on and employ our creative Reason to generate the appropriate solution from natural law. Imposing a permanent state of global religious warfare is NOT the answer; it is the surest way to a new dark age for all of humanity.

You remind me of the naughty child who, knowing he/she is being bad, revels in that accomplishment with a mischievous grin to the stern parent. Please stop doing that!!!

	11-03-2002 13:30									#60
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quote: You are subscribing to the fashionable hypothesis that there is no such thing as just or unjust war. I disagree. I consider the Palestinian cause just, Israelīs not. That they are using similar means is irrelevant.

This is a fashionable hypothessis? I had no idea. Anyway, I do think that there can be just and unjust wars, it's just that in this case either both sides are in the right or neither. They both consider Palestine their home, and they've both lived there for a long time. That most of the Jews were expelled doesn't mean they can't come back - if I came round to your house with a gun when you were a kid, and I'd kicked your family out, and then I gave it to someone else, would you consider it unjust to want to get it back?

quote: The tribunal itself is illegal. It should be dismissed.

Why is the tribunal illegal?