12-03-2002 19:02									#91
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Comrad Tribune: You talk about all of these people you support but you never do anything about it except post on here. If you believe in their cause, then why don't you actually do something. All of those westereners believed in them and they actually went over and gave their blood. You sit there and call them brothers and yet you do absolutly nothing. That is the reason you make me sick. Not because of your views, but because of your childish saluting of anything that is anti-american without showing the least bit of courage to back your views up.

We have a saying in America. Put up or shut up. All you do is talk. Why don't you get out and walk the walk. Or is your anti-American bias over shawdowed by a lack of courage?

	12-03-2002 19:34									#92
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Arabs Israelis are around 18%, I believe.
Their claim wasn't only to support Pals, but to protest against some discremination they suffer, right ? This discimination are quite old and have not began after the last intifada.

Are they 2nd class citizens ?

	12-03-2002 20:02									#93
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Sprayber, the are those who do the talking, so to speak, and there are those who do the fighting. I don't see Dubya fighting in Afghanistan. All he does is talk.

So you must be totally sick of him, and Cheney, and Rumsfield, and the whole group of them.

	12-03-2002 20:12									#94
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus time. That most of the Jews were expelled doesn't mean they can't come back - if I came round to your house with a gun when you were a kid, and I'd kicked your family out, and then I gave it to someone else, would you consider it unjust to want to get it back?

This seems to be off.

The Israelies were *cough*transferred*cough* by the Romans centuries ago to other parts of Europe from Palestine.

IIRC, there were two such "transfers," both caused by Israeli revolts against Roman rule. The Israelies moved the first time were supposedly lost through marriage and merging in with the locals, thus the so called "12 lost tribes."

	12-03-2002 20:16									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The Israelies moved the first time were supposedly lost through marriage and merging in with the locals, thus the so called "12 lost tribes."

These were the Assyrians, and it's "10 lost tribes".

	12-03-2002 22:06									#96
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Thanks for the correction.

So you think an actual state of war now exists in the Middle East, what with the latest incursion of Israeli forces with large numbers of tanks that resulted in quite a number of Pal casualties?

	12-03-2002 22:22									#97
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At least 20 pals were killed during this week-end I heard.
There was demonstration of settlers at Tel-Aviv too.

Of course terrorist pals will react, and so Israelis ... "Eye for an Eye", what a so marvelous behavior.

A perfect vicious circle, no end, no blance, and permanent over-reaction until the system explose.

	12-03-2002 22:35									#98
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Another example for my ranting against the Pals in Dal's solutions thread.

This Palestinian policeman was suspected with cooperating with Israel.

It's the Rammalah main city square btw.

Attachment: a.jpg
This has been downloaded 101 time(s).

	12-03-2002 22:45									#99
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That would be treason.

What's the punishment for treason in Israel?

	12-03-2002 22:47									#100
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Long long long period in jail. See the Vaanunu case.

The problem is that he wasnt trialed, and he was hanged in the ****ing city square!
Now you see with what savages we need to deal on daily basis?

	13-03-2002 01:08									#101
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Arabs Israelis are around 18%, I believe.

More.

quote: Their claim wasn't only to support Pals, but to protest against some discremination they suffer, right ? This discimination are quite old and have not began after the last intifada. Are they 2nd class citizens ?

Not legally.

However, since they indentify with the palestinians and some support the palestinian terracts, they are often seen as a "fifth column" by many israelis.

Plus, since they look like palestinians (and infact most are, only they chose to stay in israel) they are often the first to be stopped by police in times of crisis.

I live in a city and esp. a neighbourhood with many arabs. I don't contact with them too much, though I do fancy purchasing stuff from an arab local store. The arab owners are much nicer than the previous european ones.

However, with all my will for equality, I can honestly tell you that for the last several months, whenever I see a person who looks arabic and has an exceptionally large bag or coat, I walk away.

I probably went off dozens of buses and walked home, even though walking means I meet more arabs. But those are arabs who I don't suspect since they live here.

On a bus, I don't know who is local and who is a would be terrorist.



Another thing which palestinians may see as discrimination against them is the difference in budgets to jewish and arab cities.

But frankly, while that exists it's not a racial thing. It's a simple case of poltics.

The jewish cities, some cities in particular, have a lot of political power. Arabs have little political power. Those with higher power get exceptionally high budgets. Those without, get lower.

And yet another reason for the difference in budgets is the corruption. Arab society is based around "hamula"s. A hamula is a "wide family". Political leaders are usually from strong "familiies". They tend to be very corrupt.

It was recently uncovered that they often prevent their relatives and friends from getting paid, so that they can sue the country and then get millions. This "bonus" policy is widely used, and fought against my many young arab leaders.

	13-03-2002 01:17									#102
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****ing savages.

Siro , it is 18%. I know the statistics.

It's a shame that the solutions thread is kinda dead. Anyone care to dig it up?


UR : how about that discussion we had about competition in the perfect state?



(yes, I know I sound a bit confused. It's my damn dog.... )

	13-03-2002 08:10									#103
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus What DO you call a war of agression then?

This has been long discussed in another thread. Search for 'Milosevic'.

Short answer is: Look at a map. Milosevic NEVER attacked a foreign country. He was a participator in a civil war, because he opposed the split-up of Yugoslavia. He was as much an 'aggressor' as was Lincoln.

	13-03-2002 08:15									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Jules But why must there be any losers at all?

Because Israel has/is an Apartheid regime. That has to go. Palestinians won´t accept a Bantustan. Israel won´t accept anything remotely fair. So they have to fight it out. Unlike Israel, the Palestinians have nothing much to lose. They may well win.

	13-03-2002 08:19									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 I dont like the idea of having collective opinions

I don´t have a collective opinion. I do not necessarily agree with all ideas of the Palestinians. (And btw, they themselves don´t agree on everything.)

But this is a war. Being on the side of the Palestinians means I want them to win.

	13-03-2002 08:25									#106
	Re: You Talk The Talk, But You Can't Walk The Walk Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Comrad Tribune: You talk about all of these people you support but you never do anything about it except post on here. If you believe in their cause, then why don't you actually do something. All of those westereners believed in them and they actually went over and gave their blood. You sit there and call them brothers and yet you do absolutly nothing. That is the reason you make me sick. Not because of your views, but because of your childish saluting of anything that is anti-american without showing the least bit of courage to back your views up. We have a saying in America. Put up or shut up. All you do is talk. Why don't you get out and walk the walk. Or is your anti-American bias over shawdowed by a lack of courage?

Seriously: I don´t understand what you are talking about.

What do you expect me to do? Going to Palestine and throwing stones? I think I can serve them better with intellectual artillery support. Besides, how do you know I do nothing else but post here? And if you support the USA, does that mean you have already volunteered and are on your way to Afghanistan? What do you do to back up YOUR views?

	13-03-2002 08:27									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Long long long period in jail. See the Vaanunu case. The problem is that he wasnt trialed, and he was hanged in the ****ing city square! Now you see with what savages we need to deal on daily basis?

In theory, yes, all suspects should be given a chance in court to prove their innocence.

Unfortunately, both the Pals and the Israelies haven't been doing that. Consider that the Israelies have been killing "suspected terrorists" openly, it's not just the Pals who are savages.

This is a sad state of affairs.

	13-03-2002 08:29									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti UR : how about that discussion we had about competition in the perfect state?

Could you elaborate on that?

	13-03-2002 08:40									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Now you see with what savages we need to deal on daily basis?

The question is rather: With what savages to the Pals have to deal on a daily basis?

1 Below is a pic from AFP. It shows IDF soldiers quite simply executing a hand-cuffed Palestinian ***suspect*** with a shot in the head.

2 Today Israelis nearly killed the Austrian TV correspondent ***while he was on air***. He was in a building in Ramallah Israelis ***knew*** was used by the press. He was life on Austrian TV, describing the new developments, and a bullet came through the window and closely missed him. Everybody in Austria saw that in the evening news. Support for Israel will certainly increase here after we have all seen how careful the IDF is making sure not to harm innocents.

	13-03-2002 08:42									#110
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Here´s the pic:

Attachment: idf_street_execution.jpg
This has been downloaded 60 time(s).

	13-03-2002 09:26									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune 1 Below is a pic from AFP. It shows IDF soldiers quite simply executing a hand-cuffed Palestinian ***suspect*** with a shot in the head.

Umm.....those arent soldiers moron. Those are police. Who are you trying to fool?

	13-03-2002 09:55									#112
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Faded, Israeli soliders, Israeli police. Does it make a difference? If so, please elaborate.

Here is a link to the news item, btw:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1867726.stm


Eli, transfer of an ehtnic group from an area to make room for another ethnic group is defined as a warcrime. While I'm not surprised that 60% or so of Israelis support warcrimes, I agree that it is worrying...


Siro, what you described in your last paragraph is still racism. It is essentially the same reasoning used to defend the policies of southern treatment of blacks.


Jules, the entire jewish population in palestine numbered 25.000 in 1900. I'm willing to bet that there are more than 25.000 greeks in turkey right now... So should we help greece reconquer old Asia minor?

	13-03-2002 10:02									#113
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quote: Faded, Israeli soliders, Israeli police. Does it make a difference? If so, please elaborate.

He was a fvckin Suicide Bomber!?


Why the outrage? He was probably reaching for his god damn explosive's trigger.

	13-03-2002 10:29									#114
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Faded, the outrage only occurs among people who believs in things like 'innocent until proven guilty', 'the police should not be also judge and executioner'.

BWT, where do you draw your lines? If a cop arrest you for shoplifting, is it OK if he shoots you? How about murder?

	13-03-2002 10:30									#115
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Oh, I'm assuming you read the story... It said 'completely subdued'.

	13-03-2002 11:02									#116
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Oh, I'm assuming you read the story... It said 'completely subdued'.

Irrelevant, his intentions were clear.

quote: BWT, where do you draw your lines? If a cop arrest you for shoplifting, is it OK if he shoots you? How about murder?

Depends if I have a bomb straped around my waiste and am heading for a crowded bus stop or food court. How Some of you can even draw such parallel's is beyond me.

quote: Faded, the outrage only occurs among people who believs in things like 'innocent until proven guilty', 'the police should not be also judge and executioner'.

Its pretty obvouis they didnt shoot the guy for the hell of it. They were being photograped unknowningly and sent a robot which detonated somthing.


The man was clearly resisting,having to be subdued. If you are one of those officers, why take the chance?

	13-03-2002 11:31									#117
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Jules, the entire jewish population in palestine numbered 25.000 in 1900. I'm willing to bet that there are more than 25.000 greeks in turkey right now... So should we help greece reconquer old Asia minor?

Not sure what you're referring to here. Please elaborate.

	13-03-2002 11:32									#118
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Faded, read the story again.

quote: Irrelevant, his intentions were clear.

He was on the ground, handcuffed and almost naked.

As far as I can tell, his intentions were to keep breathing.

If you are refering to his previous intentions, that doesn't apply. There was no danger of him detonating anything.

quote: Depends if I have a bomb straped around my waiste and am heading for a crowded bus stop or food court. How Some of you can even draw such parallel's is beyond me.

Again, read the story.

He was on the ground, handcuffed and almost naked.

As far as I can tell, he wasn't going anyway.

quote: Its pretty obvouis they didnt shoot the guy for the hell of it.

Again, read the story.

He was on the ground, handcuffed and almost naked.

As far as I can tell, he was not shot for any threat he posed. That does make it 'for the hell of it'.

quote: The man was clearly resisting,having to be subdued. If you are one of those officers, why take the chance?

Again, read the story.

He was on the ground, handcuffed and almost naked, for 30 minutes before he as shot.



Look, what it all comes down to:
If this occured in a civilized nation, the police officer who murdered him would be sent to jail.

	13-03-2002 11:40									#119
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Ooops, Jules, I'm terribly sorry. I meant GeneralTacticus, in response to his justification that there has always been a jewish presence in Palestine.

*apologies*

	13-03-2002 16:10									#120
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory The man was clearly resisting,having to be subdued. If you are one of those officers, why take the chance?

That's just daft.

He's down on the ground with his face facing down, his hands cuffed behind him, and had nothing more offensive than bad breath.

And you're saying the police was right shooting a defenseless, unarmed man?

There is something terribly wrong with you.