 |
| |
|
|
ZoboZeWarrior
|
 |
of anonym losers ... :[
Mar 2001
time: 06:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eli
Another example for my ranting against the Pals in Dal's solutions thread.
This Palestinian policeman was suspected with cooperating with Israel.
It's the Rammalah main city square btw. |
They are no more savages than some Americans with 'nigers' few tens year ago. Or some european (french, belgians, english, ...) settlers. They are humans, they are cruals.
Since, I agree it will be difficult to deal with them. I think only when palestinian will have a wealthier situation (less poverty, more job, clean house or flat) they will be less influenced by hatred. Western country must build social structure (that Israel will not destroy!).
Corruption of some Pals leaders must be stopped (They some VERY rich palestinian which they income is at least doubtful) to allow western aids to be efficient.
When people are enough feed, have good health care and a home, they will be far less easly manipulated by hatred speech.
If they have nothing to lose, they will less hesitate to die and to kill for their ideology.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Eli
|
|
Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:18
|
|
CT :
This case is even more serious than you think. According to some reports, the Police Head/Commander/Whatever in that region(Jerusalem?) ordered the policemen to execute him. There was a short media fuss about it, but when a whole IDF division enters a Palestinian city and 6-7 Israelis die every day the issue is being pushed back.
In my opinion, if these allegations are proven true, all men involved, starting from the shooter and ending with the police commander should be trialed immediately.
The most important thing we have is our humanity, and when in this difficult situation there are cases in which people lose it, they should be trialed and punished immediately. So that we will be able to say to ourselves that we are not like the beasts who hang people in the city square, deliberately murder innocents and then release the responsible because the victim is from the other side.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
 |
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
They are no more savages than some Americans with 'nigers' few tens year ago. Or some european (french, belgians, english, ...) settlers. They are humans, they are cruals. |
Well, according to my standard people who lynch others or target innocent people are savages, be they human or not.
That goes for Israeli idiots and savages as well.
quote:
Since, I agree it will be difficult to deal with them. I think only when palestinian will have a wealthier situation (less poverty, more job, clean house or flat) they will be less influenced by hatred. Western country must build social structure (that Israel will not destroy!). |
Hmm...
Let me refresh your memory:
Sept 2000
The most successfull economical year for ISrael and the PA
Many cooperation efforts
After camp david didn't work, Barak continues to negociate peace in Tab'a.
And then, somehow, someway, terror erupted.
The conclusion is that this eruption was infact NOT fueled by the people but rather instigated by Arafat.
And the longer this conflict draws, the more devastation it creates for both sides.
If we on Oct. 2000, crushed the PA, so many lives would ahve been saved on both sides.
quote:
Corruption of some Pals leaders must be stopped (They some VERY rich palestinian which they income is at least doubtful) to allow western aids to be efficient. |
How about Arafat having secret bank accounts with the aid he gets for the pals which he keeps for himself?
I read a very interesting feature about it in Yedioth Ahronot.
quote:
When people are enough feed, have good health care and a home, they will be far less easly manipulated by hatred speech.
If they have nothing to lose, they will less hesitate to die and to kill for their ideology. |
Remind you again - sept. 2000.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
|
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
The question is rather: With what savages to the Pals have to deal on a daily basis?
1 Below is a pic from AFP. It shows IDF soldiers quite simply executing a hand-cuffed Palestinian ***suspect*** with a shot in the head.
|
Well, that I don't agree with. Just like builder said.
That is ****ing horrible.
And still, he wanted to die anyway. This way he died without taking Israelis with him.
quote:
2 Today Israelis nearly killed the Austrian TV correspondent ***while he was on air***. He was in a building in Ramallah Israelis ***knew*** was used by the press. He was life on Austrian TV, describing the new developments, and a bullet came through the window and closely missed him. Everybody in Austria saw that in the evening news. Support for Israel will certainly increase here after we have all seen how careful the IDF is making sure not to harm innocents. |
Once again let me remind you:
1) This is a war zone. Journalists got killed in yugoslavia and chechnya and afghanistan.
2) Israel makes a serious offensive and therefore it is prone to more "collateral damage". Admittedly, it ain't right or just. But it happens. That's why we call it war.
3) It is hard to trace bullets. IDF very often have gunfights with palestinian gunmen. Theoretically, any of the bullets could come from pals just as well.
4) Many low ranking field officers are stupid. This is the thing I am most ashamed of, but it's true. Not all small officers or soldiers know which building is which. This is in my eyes deplorable and I believe the new Chief of General Staff will do his best to stop.
quote:
Unfortunately, both the Pals and the Israelies haven't been doing that. Consider that the Israelies have been killing "suspected terrorists" openly, it's not just the Pals who are savages. |
Let me remind you again.
We only killed people when we had no other choise. To prove that, compare some 30 people we assassinated, to 1000s we successfully managed to arrest and are now facing trial or already serving time.
However, arresting, esp. big shot leaders, is tough and costly. And this, together with a hot-alert scenario (we know he's planning a terract really soon) is what makes us pull the trigger.
You criticize our assassinations, but then when we enter the terrotories and physically apprehend (those who aren't hiding in Arafat's office) terrorists, you criticize us once more.
Arafat is not arresting anyone. It's all up to us. What should we do?
And finally, given the low rate of assassination compared to arrests, you can be sure Israel always acts on more than a "hunch" when assassinating.
Problem is, sometimes we miss 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Az
|
 |
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:18
|
|
I am not sure who said it , but was his intention to keep on breathing? You do remember he's a suicide bomber, right?
innocent until proven guilty ? Actually , I guess he committed no crime , since he didn't actually explode himself taking the lifes of numerous civilians with him... , huh?
what we're dealing with are madmen . They are willing to die , killing other people , guilty of nothing , with them , in the belief that they will recieve an unearthly treating when they supposedly arrive to a place that doesn't exist.
the whole fricking situation cannot be tackled by regular means.
Since in my opinion , the Islamic extremism is not caused by living conditions , but by train of thought , and social normas , I also believe that we cannot make life better for the people in the ME , and improve their stance on things . As long as human life is not valued as highly as in most other societies, there is nothing to talk about.
We cannot teach the people of islamic countries to behave differently because that would be forcing our civilization on them? our values on them?
I don't know any more . I have absolutely no clue.
quote:
And you're saying the police was right shooting a defenseless, unarmed man?
|
*cough* bomb*cough* ... so you feel sorry for the suicide bomber? The only way I feel sorry for him that he was beeing used as a pawn by muslim leaders.
UR, about the perfect state : I was reffering to a mini-discussion we had in that other thread :'how can people prefer National Socialism to communism?'
quote:
I assume some kind of sleep drug would have been more humane, but it's not always possible or is there time for it.
|
police don't go around with tranquilizer guns, IIRC. nowhere.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
CyberGnu
|
 |
of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
|
|
Siro, your conclusions is based on flawed data, or rather a flawed extrapolation.
While the situation for the palestinians were better in 2000 than they'd been in 50 years, they were by no means good.
BTW, if Arafats bank accounts are secret, how come you read about them? (I'm not really serious... I just hate the use of the word 'secret' when it is reported in the media. Pet peeve of mine, if you will).
I'm not entirely sure what your point is though... Yes, Arafat has most likely salted away some of the aid money for himself. But you also said yourself that before the second intifada the palstinians were enjoying the highest standards of living in many years.. Obviously he is doing something good with the aid money... Especially considering that Israel has been very busy destroying the things he built...
You know, I don't think the suicide bomber wanted to die. Think of it as a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his friends... It's not a deathwish, it is a sacrifice. The suicide bomber is trying to help his people the only way he sees fit. Whether this is a good way is another question.
I would like to remind that this is a counterproductive strategy (much like the Israeli 'retalitory attacks'), if indeed Israel is trying to create a safer situation.
Is Israel any safer now that this man is dead instead of locked away in prison? Doubtful. But every single future suicide bomber knows that giving up only means summary execution. This means they will fight to the utmost to take someone with them if they are caught... Which will inevitably lead to more deaths. Even if ten suicide bombers are killed immediately, it only takes one person who instead of giving up does manage to kill a bystander for this policy to be a complete failure...
And don't take just my words for it... This is well known in warfare. In ww2, Gobbels propaganda machine spent considerable effort in manufacturing footage from fictional British POW camps, showing how germans soldiers were tortured to death. The brits, on the other hand, allocated airplanes that could have carried bombs to carry fliers in stead, with testaments from german soliders who were actually POWs... All to influence the likelyhood of german soliders to give up instead of fighting to the last man.
Siro, you seem to have misunderstood the entire critisism of the Isralei assassination policy. The people you assassinate are not even tried in a court of law in their absence. They are identified as terrorists by the army, who summarliy executes them. This puts you on par with Stalin, Hirohito etc.
The whole point is that civilized nations doesn't do that.
Dalgetti and Siro:
You both seem to have misunderstood the whole concept of 'innocent until proven guilty'.
If I shoot Bush on national TV and put down my gun immediately afterwards, I am innocent until a court of law has proven me guilty. That the conviction is a foregone conclusion is not relevant. and if a cop would shoot me as I'm lying on the ground with handcuffs on me, that cop would go to jail for shooting an unarmed man. Only if I'm threatening someones life can the cop shoot me.
And in this case it is very clear (at least from the story) that the man was not posing a threat. the police who shot him is a murderer, and should be sentenced as such. If someone gave an order to shoot him, it is even worse...
Of course, if the police can give a reasonable explanation, such as 'he was reaching for a trigger', that would be a different story. But apparently the initial police report stated that he was shot because he resisted the police when they tried to remove his cloak...
This was before the pictures were shown, however, where it is very clear that he is not wearing a cloak when he was shot.
It is a typical coverup, only revelead by the coincidental presense of a reporter.
And if nothing else, it should make you think... How many times have similar things happened when no reporter was present? How many palestinian accusation of brutality or premediated murder which you've written of as propaganda were actually true?
Dalgetti, there are a whole series of pictures, showing how they subdue him, take of his clothes, and finally shoot him.
Furthermore, the disarming exciuse doesn't fly. If they wanted to disarm the bomb safely, the easiest thing would have been to tie his legs together, put a sharpshooter on him, untie his hands and run... and tell him that if he doesn;t remove the bomb belt he will be shot. But he never got that chance...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tom201
|
|
Amsterdam
Dec 2001
time: 05:18
|
|
I saw the IDF arresting a bunch of pals yesterday on TV. The interesting thing was, that they all were blindfolded. Dont really get it why?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
CyberGnu
|
|
of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
|
|
Natan, who is Muhammed Ataf? Is that the high ranking Al-Quida guy who got shot a while ago? Please elaborate.
And I don't think they will kill OBL if they can help it. The US needs to show the arab world that it can be a civilized nation too.
But you are essentially reverting back to the old Israeli defense... 'See, our only ally in the world is doing it too, so it must be alright for us to do it.'
It is not a valid defense. I don't really care how many people the US assassinates, it still doesn;t make it right for Israel. And I would debate the US policy in a separate thread.
Your second line of defense 'see, tha palestinians does it too' is also invalid, for the same reason. Furthermore, the collaborator you talked about was killed by a lynch mob. Not a representative of the goverment. If Arafats guards had killed him, then it would have been equally bad...
I guess the difference is that I wouldn't defend reprehensible actions carried out by arafats goverment, while you seem ready to defend pretty much any atrocity carried out by the Israeli goverment. Do you have a line? Is there ANYTHING the Israeli goverment could do that you wouldn't blindly defend?
You say you can't understand the concern for this guy... Well, as I told Siro, there are two reasons. One ideological, where a civilized nation respects the principle of innocent until proven guilty, and one practical, where this action is counterproductive.
If you are a moral person, you should be horrified for the first reason. If you are logical person, you should be horrified by the second.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
 |
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Natan, are you not aware how far fetched your examples are?
How on earth are you comparing a man who died in an airstrike to a man who got shot in the head while handcuffed? |
You were complaining about Israel's assassination policy as well, and that is why I brought up the airstrikes. I'm not defending the shooting of unarmed men.
quote:
Wanted dead or alive doesn't necessairy mean kill him before apprehending him. It actually means 'we want him, whether he is dead or alive when you find him'. You have been watching too many western movies. |
I think that you have been watching too much of the BBC. The US quite clearly intends to kill Bin Laden when the opportunity presents itself. If he can be captured without risk to US forces, that may be attempted, but I assure you, we will not shrink back from bombing his cave just because he hasn't had a trial yet.
quote:
Two things:
You have so far failed to show how US policy is similar to either Stalin or Israeli policies. |
I'd say that both engage in airstrikes against terrorist leaders who have not recieved trials, and that contrary to the claim you made, this bears no resemblance to Stalin, Hirohito, etc.
quote:
Second: I just told you that it deosn;t matter. I don't care if the U.S. overnight turns into the fourth reich - this has no bearing on the current argument!
|
It seems self-evident to me that the US bears little or no resemblance to Stalinist Russia as regards the issue of fair trials, etc. When you say that Israel is acting like Stalin for doing what America does, you are saying that America too is acting like Stalinist Russia. I think it's self-evident that such comparisons are invalid.
quote:
Care to defend Israels actions some more? You still haven't touched the original issue... Give me one good reason why the Israeli cop should not be sent to jail for the rest of his life |
Did I say he shouldn't be?
quote:
and one good reason to believe that this does not happen when reporters aren;t around to document it... |
Because I'm not aware of a single other instance (besides Bus 300) where police claim to have shot a terrorist where there weren't plenty of witnesses. It's actually rather hard to get away with this sort of thing in this day and age, as the Shin-bet agents responsible for the crimes in the aftermath of the Bus 300 hijacking discovered.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
CyberGnu
|
|
of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
|
|
Natan:
quote:
You were complaining about Israel's assassination policy as well, and that is why I brought up the airstrikes. |
Well, that wasn't evident from your posts...
quote:
I'm not defending the shooting of unarmed men.
|
Oddly enough, this seems to be at complete odds with your previous statement:
quote:
I frankly can't understand the concern about this guy. Sure, it wasn't right to kill him without trial while he was unarmed. But I think that's really a secondary or tertiary concern at this time. You won't see me complaining if some Jewish guy walks into a Mosque with a bomb or gun and is summarily shot after he is disarmed. |
So, which one is it that you actually adhere to?
quote:
I think that you have been watching too much of the BBC. The US quite clearly intends to kill Bin Laden when the opportunity presents itself. If he can be captured without risk to US forces, that may be attempted, but I assure you, we will not shrink back from bombing his cave just because he hasn't had a trial yet.
|
I must confess - I think I might have been led into the jewish trap. I repsonded to your sophistry without contemplating enough, and consequently wasted my time killing strawmen...
The U.S. has declared a state of war with the Al-quida and the Talibans. The air strikes were carried out as part of this war.
Israel (as well as Stalin), on the other hand, performs assassinations against a people they occupy. You might bleat about how this should be considered a state of war, but the fact is that the Palestinians WANT to have it declared a war... That way they would enjoy protection from the Geneva convention, which is stronger than the UN resolutions... and it is Israel who insists that it is just an administration...
So, for your comparison to have any validity, you would have to show how the U.S. goverment has a policy of assassinating a people they occupy.
Thus, your insistent claims that Israel is just doing what the US does are again doubly flawed.
They are obvisouly absurd, and even if they were true it wouldn't matter.
How about posting about something worthwhile?
quote:
Because I'm not aware of a single other instance (besides Bus 300) where police claim to have shot a terrorist where there weren't plenty of witnesses. It's actually rather hard to get away with this sort of thing in this day and age, as the Shin-bet agents responsible for the crimes in the aftermath of the Bus 300 hijacking discovered. |
Surprisingly, you again completely failed to get the point... Think about it for a while. You might get it. If you still can't, let me know and I'll try to give you a hint.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
|
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:18
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Natan:
Well, that wasn't evident from your posts... |
I think it should be clear when I argue with your analogy that
quote:
Oddly enough, this seems to be at complete odds with your previous statement:
So, which one is it that you actually adhere to? |
To make the point with the apparently necessary rhetorical sledgehammer, if you'd made a post about parking ticket violations as worse than the Rwandan genocide, I would have had the same reaction. One doesn't have to support a given action to think it recieves disproportionate attention or indignation.
quote:
I must confess - I think I might have been led into the jewish trap. I repsonded to your sophistry without contemplating enough, and consequently wasted my time killing strawmen... |
quote:
The U.S. has declared a state of war with the Al-quida and the Talibans. The air strikes were carried out as part of this war. |
It's not a war in any formal sense, since we do not recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government.
quote:
Israel (as well as Stalin), on the other hand, performs assassinations against a people they occupy. You might bleat about how this should be considered a state of war, but the fact is that the Palestinians WANT to have it declared a war... That way they would enjoy protection from the Geneva convention, which is stronger than the UN resolutions... and it is Israel who insists that it is just an administration... |
Ah, I get it - the assassinations are when America forgets to pretend that a guerilla movement in control of 5% of the area is the government.  I don't think semantics make the difference between right and wrong. But you've already said you don't care either way, so I see no reason to belabor the point.
Comrade Tribune: The poor guy was shot with a tank machine gun - AFAIK those usually fire in 6-10 round bursts, they're automatic weapons with a very high rate of fire, many bullets in a second. If Israel wanted to keep foriegn journalists out, it could easily just deny them entry visas.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:18.
Apolyton Time is 00:18. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
13-03-2002 17:31
Attachment: 
|
