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Dank
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Mmmm........sounds like it might of been a good thing I missed Saturdays game....but I couldn't avoid it...I will be here next Satureday though....
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:18
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My advice: quit whining (is that american for whinging?)
I agree with Deity. All everyone cares about is balance. The real world isn't balanced, diplogames arent' supposed to be balanced. HOTW3 is off to a great start, the Zulu shot straight to the top, they have 20 cities now, I've got 11, do I whine? No.
The Germans and Chinese have lush, incredibly fertile land in Europe. I have desert, desert, and more desert. Do I whine? No.
This is how fun is created in a diplogame. This is the mechanism to make things interesting. India and Russia are way behind the Zulu? Well they team up to take a bit of land to even the score. The top dog gets isolated in the world, and that makes up for it.
There are many, many ways within the context of a diplogame to even out uneven starts. In the real world does Switzerland complain they aren't as big as Russia? Do Australians complain they aren't as dashingly good looking as Americans? No, people just deal with the lots they've been given.
All civs are not created equal. Deal with it. Quit whingerging.
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:18
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You chose the Arabs  If you're looking for someone to blame go find a mirror. Most of Kuja's gains have been because of his superior game play finding huts. Plus you're taking this out of context. There's strict limitations on alliances and tech trading in this game, which would be fine........IF the game was balanced!
I'm not going to sit here and be told not to "whine" when game after game is halted whenever someone else feels like they don't like it anymore or it isn't convientiant for them anymore.
Some of the words you guys are throwing around would get you a punch in the face down here in Texas, and its over a game that you're using such words.
For me, a diplo game has always been about the clash of great empires. Russia, China, Germany, USA, etc etc........In this case I get to play as someone like greenland. No offense, but its not what civ or diplo games are about.
Do I REALLY have to go back and document every single diplo game that has failed due to poor game balance for you to understand this? Maintaining balance in the game is the ONLY, and I mean ONLY way to keep people interested in a game. Diplo games were designed specificly to maintain this balance, so "agressors" were punished, and the top dawg didn't just run around killing everyone. Only over time did they evolve into a kind of civ soap opera that some now misinterpet as the orginal intent. If the Balance is never established it can never be maintained and the diplo game has no point and is dead.
Last edited by Frank Johnson on 27-03-2002 at 00:59
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:18
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Yes ozzy will lecture you on non-equality, but he will still choose a starting location with a whale and 2 other specials  I also think he's playing the "you can't quit, look how bad off I am" card, since he's the driving force behind HOTW3, but in all my conversations with him, it would be hard to say he doesn't have winning, or at least competiting on his mind!
Equality isn't a good of a word as competitive. You want a game to be competitive. When a game isn't competitive anymore its over!
Deity, why instantly assoicate a descent starting location with war? It affects everything from tech prdocution, to caravan production, wonders and everything else. To say "If you want fair starts you just worry about war." like you are is wrong. In fact, the better land I get the LESS likely I am to war as far I'm concearned. Weither I produce tech, armies, or caravans.....you're going to produce more of them because of your start. I might produce more snowcones than you, but thats about it. BTW premade maps can have huts.
And why are you so attached to this game? I would have hoped you fought harder for the last game, which we spent much more time on. 
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Yes ozzy will lecture you on non-equality, but he will still choose a starting location with a whale and 2 other specials I also think he's playing the "you can't quit, look how bad off I am" card, since he's the driving force behind HOTW3, but in all my conversations with him, it would be hard to say he doesn't have winning, or at least competiting on his mind!
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Yes, I am indeed looking to compete. Thats the point. But I was actually looking for an underdog position in this game and hoping to pull myself up by my own ingenuity and diplo-skills. I am actually a bit disappointed at this point, because I am doing better than I thought I would be. I see ahead to very good things in the future, and it doesn't feel as much fun anymore.
I'm always the guy who roots for the underdog. Just in my nature I guess. So I in fact prefer to be in a crappy position and have to work my way out of it. Within reason of course, you can certainly go too far and truly be uncompetitive. I agree with Frank entirely, you need to at least be "in the game". But I think we have a different idea of what this needs.
Hows this for a good compromise statement. (cause i don't want all this fighting out of game) Every diplo player should be prepared to be in last place, every diplo player should not get pissy, whinny, upset or moody if they are in last place, of course even the last place player should be reasonably close to the person above him and the situation must remain competitive to remain fun.
Ok, long statement. Now shake and be friends.
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Frank Johnson
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Houston, TX
Jan 1970
time: 23:18
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Yes, going into a game with players like this, you can't get upset that you aren't riding high in first like you should be against the AI. But we should have realized this from the start, if we ban alliances and tech trading, each civ is solely dependent on themselves for everything, and that only futher complicates whatever horrible start a player might be given. It makes balanced starting locations that much more important than it might be in a game where tech trading and alliances are allowed.
However I've found in these diplo games players are all too unwilling to make counter allainces against the top player(s). That's my main beef...you can throw all this stuff around about diplomacy balancing things out, but I always try to lean in the direction that will keep the game balanced, even if it means starting a war with a larger opponent. So if I'm not a at least a force to be considered in a game, usually no one will take up the cause of trying to maintain the game balance.
For instance, if we continued the last game I would have faced the hard choice of desiding how far to let deity go on the euros and fodder.......after all he was #1 even if by a narrow margin....
Last edited by Frank Johnson on 28-03-2002 at 01:47
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Dank
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Well now that you guys got that out of your system....does that mean that I get to start with you all on Saturday? I wasn't here last time so I couldn't really make any comments concerning the map.
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winzity
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Sweden
Sep 1999
time: 05:18
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I think the game is full, so no more players can join it.
For me the fact that you join a game means you accept the rules of the game is a true statement. Therefore the above discussion about change the rule after the game is started looks strange. You have to live with the rules... In some games you get a good start, in some a bad. Good luck in either case, the best player will win, in the long run.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:18
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It looks like History Of The World 3 is in need of a sub for the Zulu. Kuja has decided to bow out due to connection difficulties (although if it hasn't truly been decided please correct me ASAP so I don't replace you without your consent!). So if you think you are up to the level demanded of you in HOTW3, and if you have a stable connection and can make Wednesday nights at 7 PM, then please post here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...4&goto=lastpost
BTW, Kuja's position is the biggest and bestest in the world. He is much larger and powerful than anyone else in the game. So to keep things balanced Markus' need not apply.  Kuja is also my ally in the game, so i get a bit of a say I suppose.
General rules: Very important you stay in character. Role-playing is the key element in diplogames and I put a stress on it. Please try to make interesting and captivating posts about game progress and such. Also relate to your fellow gamers as if you were really head of a nation.
It is on a world map, there are Germans, Russians, Arabs (me), Chinese, Indians, and Zulu (Kuja). The Americas and Australia are for colonization. No conquest limits or much else, just play your role. Everything is discussed in detail in the HOTW3 thread. The story thread is linked to in my profile.
Umm, anything else I'm leaving out? I'm hoping for a good replacement, Kuja did a fine job so far, someone needs to fill his shoes.
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26-03-2002 18:11
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I will be here sunday morning but if I'm a minute or so late coming online do not panic , it is just a matter of getting the hungover brain into action. 
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