01-04-2002 15:34									#91
	Keep the other thread, started by Epik, clean... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Keep using this thread for game organisation, rules, etc but use Epik's WHEMDD thread for the diplo stories.

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With tech stealing I think it's really important that it be seen as an act of war and needs to be part of the civs stories.

So, if Epik has stolen from Makeo it makes sense for there to be a greater chance of war between these two civs.

Ie, Dangimes warning about 'friendly tech stealing' in a 'no tech trade' game is very important for us to guard against. We need to trust each other and work it in to the stories. War must make some sense.

Likewise with no alliances. It is expected that the first civ you meet is likely to be a 'friend' and that a peace treaty would most likely be signed but there should be no collusion, no co-ordinating of tactics etc. We are 6 civs AGAINST each other.

Are we all on the same page? Have I got it right?

	02-04-2002 06:42									#92
	Tech stealling is an act of war! Support Apolyton

I warned Diety about the problem with friendly tech stealing. Maybe Dangime did it too, else Diety have mistake who did it.

Anyway the ONLY way to get this game to work is to FORBID tech stealing. The only tech you will get from others is the ones you get when you capture cities.

It will be completely forbidden to use diplomats to steal techs even in war, if all player can accept this very simple consequences of the game rules about forbidden tech exchanges.

	02-04-2002 06:48									#93
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Are you saying I did it? For the record, I dont have writing yet so there! :P

	02-04-2002 10:05									#94
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

tech stealing must be allowed, otherwise once someone gets a technological advantage the game is over.

	02-04-2002 20:00									#95
	Tech Stealing Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I see no problem with Tech Stealing. Yes it can be considered an act of war. It is up to the victum to decide whether they want to send out their army to punish the theif.

In our game I was willing to risk war. Normally I can get to Monarchy by at least 2000BC but in this game I was not getting to choose Code of Laws. So I decided to try and steal from Makeo. I was lucky to get Monarchy from my theft.

I think that there are enough costs and risks involved to keep the theiving to a minimum. You lose the diplo, you can only steal once from a city (unitl spys), you don't necessarily get the tech you need, and you risk having war declared.

I also do not have a problem with "friendly" tech theft. It is still costly in units and the time it takes to accomplish.

As Makeo says, tech theft is a way for the tribes that are trailing in the game to catch up. We need to give all of the players a chance, so that the game will stay interesting for them, and then they will not be tempted to quit.

	04-04-2002 20:06									#96
	Don't forget to tell your story Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hydey, Makeo and Winzity....

Post your stories in http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=46245

We all want to know the history of your civs.

	07-04-2002 01:03									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

hey guys aus land went to daylight savings last week and we don't do it until tomorrow so you guys have to be here an hour early i think

	07-04-2002 03:04									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i can't write my story because i don't have my civ disk all this week hopefully my friend brings it back today.

	07-04-2002 03:33									#100
	we start in 35 mins Get a bigger avatar today!

9am Sunday morning here in Eastern Australia (EST)
two hours earlier than before for Aussies only - but we stick, therefore, with the same but NEW Daylight time in USA....

we start in 35 mins

	07-04-2002 03:43									#101
	WE are a weekend out! Get a bigger avatar today!

USA is still on OLD time because it is their Sat night.

WE went to normal time in Aust LAST weekend but last year it happened on the same weekend - bloody confusing!

Anyway, we therefore start in about an hour and half...

	07-04-2002 03:56									#102
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

nah we'll start in 2 and a half hours cos hydey won't figure it out.

	07-04-2002 04:08									#103
	Re: Tech Stealing Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Epik I see no problem with Tech Stealing. Yes it can be considered an act of war. It is up to the victum to decide whether they want to send out their army to punish the theif. In our game I was willing to risk war. Normally I can get to Monarchy by at least 2000BC but in this game I was not getting to choose Code of Laws. So I decided to try and steal from Makeo. I was lucky to get Monarchy from my theft. I think that there are enough costs and risks involved to keep the theiving to a minimum. You lose the diplo, you can only steal once from a city (unitl spys), you don't necessarily get the tech you need, and you risk having war declared. I also do not have a problem with "friendly" tech theft. It is still costly in units and the time it takes to accomplish. As Makeo says, tech theft is a way for the tribes that are trailing in the game to catch up. We need to give all of the players a chance, so that the game will stay interesting for them, and then they will not be tempted to quit.

For the record this was not my expectation Epik.

What I was looking forward to was a game where you fundamentally relied on your own tech tree other than the spoils of war and any theft that went with it.

This friendly tech stealing is tedious and takes out the fin IMHO.

The game will still be good either way but I would prefer that we ban all tech stealing. This is what I think would be the best and most interesting challenge...

Can everyone vote now, before the start of todays session?

	07-04-2002 04:11									#104
	Support Apolyton

Just in case y'all need it, I'm rather bored and I can sub tonight.

	07-04-2002 04:14									#105
	Put an end to popups!

Banning it would be the simple and sure solution I guess.

However now you guys are getting into my territory.

By that I mean, instead of colluding to catch up in tech, you'll have to take "other corrective measures" to even games up. I hope you guys understand this concept. I do.

	07-04-2002 04:56									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I vote to allow tech stealing...

"Friendly tech stealing should be allowed...

We have banned about every part of the game that might give us a chance to negotiate with each other. If you wanted to play a bloodlust version, then you should have said so at the beginning.

	07-04-2002 05:04									#107
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If we allow friendly tech stealing we may as well allow tech trading. But to ban tech stealing is not an answer. If one civ gets a tech lead where they have cavalry and riflemen whereas other civs do not have either of these techs the advanced civ will dominate easily since they have the tech lead and the other civs can't take any of their cities to even it up.

i'm against tech trading
i'm against friendly tech stealing
i'm agains banning tech stealing.

	07-04-2002 05:07									#108
	Please forbid tech stealing! Enter the AD-FREE zone

I vote to forbid tech stealing by using diplos and spies. You are of course allowed to assimilate the tech you get when you capture cities. The above rules should hold even in a war... Stealing tech by using diplos and spies should not be an allowed method!

You have to use your own skills to research techs!!!

	07-04-2002 05:19									#109
	REMINDER: Friendly tech stealing don't work! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Friendly tech stealing means to do that Epik did!
Exchange Map with a tech!
Next time the role is the opposite Makeo give the Map to get a tech....

Think self please!!!

LET THE MOST SKILLED DEVELOPER WIN THE GAME!
Forbid tech stealing now!

Last edited by winzity on 07-04-2002 at 14:49

	07-04-2002 05:24									#110
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

your wrong.

when he stole the tech i declared war on him. i demanded he give me his maps or we would remain at war. Therefore it was not a friendly tech steal. he pissed me off.

Civ is more than developing your cities. if you want to ban tech stealing you may as well be playing a perfectionist game against the ai.
why must the most skilled developer win the game. there is more to this game than developing your cities

	07-04-2002 05:24									#111
	Friendly tech stealing don't work at all.... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Solution like declare war is worthless ... you can declare a war and knows neither you or your opponent will attack!!! Not hard to figure out...
It was a friendly tech stealing so why should he attack?
Give a good reason.....

Forbid tech stealing now!

	07-04-2002 05:27									#112
	Put an end to popups!

look this is really quite simple. Epik is the only player who wants to allow friendly tech stealing. Hence he has no one to do this with. If he steals from you or anyone else he will get consequences.

	07-04-2002 06:02									#113
	Put an end to popups!

Not that I have a vote, but I am of the opinion that Rules just serve as a hasty stand-in for real diplo-playing ability. With weak diplo players perhaps they are needed, but for people really able to negotiate properly they should be able to work through problems with all available means.

	07-04-2002 09:29									#114
	Inflate your Upload Space

When we first started this game , the start time was 11am daylight savings time for eastern Australia, daylight savings is now over so the same time is now 10 am . I will be here at that time , I'm sure the rest of you can figure your own timezones out to be here at the same time each week

	07-04-2002 11:42									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i can't be here much earlier than our normal start time because i don't get off work until then.

	07-04-2002 14:10									#116
	This game goes US time! Please read the thread name... Put an end to popups!

We have agreed to play US time 7 PM EST. I will play on this time and not later. It's 1 AM in Sweden. The time change will have the effect that Aussie players need to start playing 9 AM instead of 11 AM. It's not so hard, to make. Do you think it's funny to start playing 3 AM instead of 1 AM only because some Aussie players don't understood the agreements they signed?

I will not accept it. It sucks... I will only play one hour if I will play at all. I don't think it's meaningful.

The only right way is to hold the agreement on which time the game should start. All need to make some type of compromising and all Aussie player you should do it too. You knew already from start that the time would change both in Aussie and US. It's nothing to discuss after the game is started. You will only crash the game (:

	07-04-2002 15:07									#117
	IT MEANS SAME START TIME IN US Suffering from ads?

Not earlier and not later. It will also mean same start time in Sweden there I am.

quote: Originally posted by deity 9am Sunday morning here in Eastern Australia (EST) two hours earlier than before for Aussies only - but we stick, therefore, with the same but NEW Daylight time in USA....

I hope it is clear that was agreed when we started the game now. Next session will start:

9 AM Sunday for Aussie players
7 PM EST for US players

	07-04-2002 15:28									#118
	Sorry Hydey... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

... even though you have a valid point and it's the Aussies having to be flexible all the time. it is as Winzity says. But we can't force you. If family pressures dictate you can't start until an hour later it's hard to know what to say. Let's just make every effort to start as early as possible.

Maybe just half hour later at 9:30am Sunday Aust time Hydey?

And Winz, maybe you can have a nap before the game

And Makeo, can you possibly play longer?

	08-04-2002 02:20									#119
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well well, Mr Sweden has demanded that I put my marriage on the line to suit him, I don't think so buddy.

	08-04-2002 04:06									#120
	Support Apolyton

I don't care what arrangement is worked out as long as the time of play is roughly the same. Maybe there's even another day this game can be played.

After awhile I may get a job and have to dump this game, or have all my civing activities altered to suit someone else so I understand what everyone is doing. For now I'll move to whatever time is agreed, I just don't want the game to go any slower than it is.