08-04-2002 19:35									#121
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I suppose I am beating the proverbable dead horse here, but this is the last set of rules posted by deity before the game started (from page 2 of the thread)

quote: Originally posted by deity I may be in the minority but I think because of the way the civ engine works it may be best to have no "alliances" and no tech trading? But stealing and capture are OK. To sum up my SUGGESTIONS: ONE Wonder per civ NO Alliances NO Tech trading ONLY capture one undefended city per turn pre 1000BC (per civ) ONLY capture 3 cities per turn per civ thereafter Ceding units OK BUT NO double moves No City bribe Unit bribe OK All tricks acceptable in Rah Rules are OK - like IRB is OK, etc All the cheats not accepted in Rah rules NOT OK - NO caraporting, etc

Deity indicated in our King Chat that he thought the limits on tech stealing were made before the game started, but I do not see any limits mentioned. I have played in several Rah Rule games and tech stealing (including "friendly" thefts) are considered acceptable. It was always up to the victum to decide whether it was an act of war.

After the first round everyone but me agreed to force a declaration of war before stealing a tech. This will make it extremely difficult to pull off a theft, since the element of surprise is gone. In my opinion the penalties have become so high that stealing a tech is no longer a viable option.

I was under the impression that this would be a Diplo game, where we would have some things that we could negotiate. I suppose I should have declined to play when I saw that alliances and tech trading would not be allowed. In my opinion, negotiation is the best part of a Diplo game. In this game we can now not even negotiate whether to go to war or not, after a tech theft.

This game has gotten too restrictive for my tastes, and I feel I must now withdraw.

If there is someone else out there that can live with these restrictions, then they are welcome to take over the Borg Collective.

	08-04-2002 19:44									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Epik, if I remember correctly as soon as deity posted that rules set, I raised the issue of "friendly" tech stealing. I knew this was a normal part of most RAH rule games and I felt deity was overlooking that.

I know you're new to this type of game, but we have played many and are trying to explore different options available in the game. The last sat night game was on a small map, and edited rules to slow growth, and no wonders. HOTW3 has civ specific units, that change between sessions, native americans off the tech tree and alien invasion endings. In this game deity wanted to directly address a huge issue that was raised in the last game, the tech block alliance. This definately polorized the world in the last game, and arguably made it less dynamic and fluid of diplo game. I'd agree to that assesment.

I have no doubt people will be able to steal tech if its really needed. Afterall, makeo was able to use 10+ diplos to sucicide my city walls in the last game, so maybe players will just need more diplos in this one. Not a big deal.

Plus I brought it up because I felt deity was directly trying to address the tech block in this game, and anything that compromised that might make the game lose its meaning.

	09-04-2002 16:14									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Epik I suppose I am beating the proverbable dead horse here, but this is the last set of rules posted by deity before the game started (from page 2 of the thread) Deity indicated in our King Chat that he thought the limits on tech stealing were made before the game started, but I do not see any limits mentioned. I have played in several Rah Rule games and tech stealing (including "friendly" thefts) are considered acceptable. It was always up to the victum to decide whether it was an act of war. After the first round everyone but me agreed to force a declaration of war before stealing a tech. This will make it extremely difficult to pull off a theft, since the element of surprise is gone. In my opinion the penalties have become so high that stealing a tech is no longer a viable option. I was under the impression that this would be a Diplo game, where we would have some things that we could negotiate. I suppose I should have declined to play when I saw that alliances and tech trading would not be allowed. In my opinion, negotiation is the best part of a Diplo game. In this game we can now not even negotiate whether to go to war or not, after a tech theft. This game has gotten too restrictive for my tastes, and I feel I must now withdraw. If there is someone else out there that can live with these restrictions, then they are welcome to take over the Borg Collective.

OK Epik, Dangime did warn me about this:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson

quote: Deity if you are gonna ban tech trading, might as well close the "friendly tech stealing diplo" loophole too!

and I followed up with:

Originally posted by deity

quote: I think tech stealing is OK but players should not agree to a 'friendly' deal like that. Government restrictions would apply too. I just thought of something else that would make war much more realistic and tricky... You can't ask another civ to go to war on someone else to avoid revolution! Let's play it properly particularly if we have no alliances. I really want to avoid solid blocs which will make the world more realistic.

Then after the first session we more fully discussed tech stealing and voted to ban it completely. I really don't care too much, I just thought it would be more interesting without tech stealing once I saw the problem.

To keep you in the game, Epik, I'm happy to continue with tech stealing allowed and see what happens. As I see it this is your only bone of contention and not really worth quitting over. Can everyone agree on this please since it was not ratified before the game started, ie we now allow tech stealing in whatever form and let the diplomatic circumstances unfold.

It's more valuable to me that we have fine players willing to commit to a game and stay with it. One day it might never exist
I'll go online in the future and no one will be here to play proper Apolyton civ.

Our current game is an excellent game and is very evenly balanced.

So let's all stop "whinging" LOL

AND carry on, please...

	10-04-2002 19:57									#124
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Has the start time issue been resolved? Reading the previous posts it sounds like it may prevent others from continuing the game.

Since everyone else wanted to play without tech stealing, I think it would be best if someone replaces me in the game. I thought I could live with the restrictions on alliances and tech trading, but I have also come to the conclusion that it removes too much of the thing that made diplo games fun, which is negotiations.

What you need is another player who can accept the restrictions.

It is too bad that you have experienced problems with alliances and tech trading in the past. I guess what is needed is a group of players who will act in their tribe's self interest. This would mean that they were willing to break alliances when their ally became too strong, and they would only trade a tech when they got something of value in return. I was lucky enough to find such a group once before, so it is possible.

	11-04-2002 01:11									#125
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Nah epik, it only took one person to kill the last game. Because you're a conistant player (at least these 2 sessions) that gives you some clout. If you insist on this, I suppose we will accept it. Afterall we know how to play that way as well, and its unlikely to find another player who will be conistant and meet the time slot requirements.

All the time issues revolve around length of play, not being able to play. The time scheme means our sessions would be an hour shorter, if the status quo remains. I'd ask for some consessions from both hydey and makeo so this hour could be made up, I dont know how long a game that is only played an hour and a half a week will hold up.

	11-04-2002 02:55									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Frank Johnson , I dont know how long a game that is only played an hour and a half a week will hold up.

We played over 4 hours last week at the same start time.

	11-04-2002 03:00									#127
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Nope. Makeo leaves at 9:30 Pm my time on the dot. The game didnt get on untill wll after 6 pm, dont remember exactly when. But the point is the game will be an hour shorter if we keep this way in the coming weeks. I just want to play at least a solid 3-4 hours.......otherwise a weekly game will last forever.

	11-04-2002 06:34									#128
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I agree with Dang.

The most important thing to me is to keep everyone in the game.

So stay with us Epik - We won't mention it!

	11-04-2002 14:03									#129
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oops sorry Frank , My mistake when the game started at 10:17 am My time and ended at 2:22 pm I thought it was more than 4 hours but perhaps I am wrong and bow to your superior interlect.
Like I said to deity I will get online as soon as I can but can not promise to be here 2 hours earlier than I was for the first session of this game.

	11-04-2002 21:13									#130
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Ok maybe it was my imagination. It looks close to 6:30 to 10:30 my time......I just seems we never get it going on time, and Im a junky you know, got to have my civ, so sorry for distrubing ya.

	14-04-2002 03:45									#131
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Well no one jumped up and volunteered to take over my tribe, and I have no other plans for tonight, so I will play at least one more round.

Also the sight of a deity begging me to stay pleased me...

	14-04-2002 04:51									#132
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yes what was Deity doing on his knees in front of you

	21-04-2002 07:05									#133
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i love this game

	21-04-2002 09:08									#134
	I'm away for 2 weekends Inflate your Upload Space

I will be away for the next 2 weekends and as such will require a sub. Any one wishing to put up with this lot for a couple of sessions please let us know.

	21-04-2002 13:56									#135
	any takers for the sub spot ? Put an end to popups!

Please someone sub for hydey, don't leave the Victorian people to the AI.

	21-04-2002 19:40									#136
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I also will be unavailable next saturday. Perhaps we could postpone the game for a week.

	22-04-2002 02:57									#137
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Agreed

	23-04-2002 07:51									#138
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The Greeks king have resigned! Winner in the war are Aztecs and Deitians. They have the right to the Greek cities...

	25-04-2002 00:40									#139
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Well this sucks! I am disappointed in you Winzity. Why the heck did you get yourself into a war with 2 tribes?

I hate it when there is an AI in the game, and I don't like the idea of just giving 2 of the tribes the Greek cities.

The only options I see are to set the game up to eliminate the Greeks, or to start a new game without Winzity.

To eliminate the Greeks we would have to change the game options so that a civ is eliminated on retirement. Someone would have to take the Greeks and then retire. We would then restart the game with 5 players. The former Greek lands could then be resettled by other tribes. I am not real excited about this option, since I have not yet made contact with the Greeks, and it is unlikely that I would be able to set up a city in their former land.

So, I suggest we start a new game.

	25-04-2002 01:25									#140
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Err well we could continue this game, we could turn his land into ocean, to make sure no one gets a unfair advantage.

What would be better is to offer Winzity some peace agreement his civ can live with, not "Greeks will die."

	25-04-2002 08:57									#141
	This is what we do! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Firstly, we postpone this weekend with Makeo and Hydey's absence.

This gives us time to convince Winz to stay with us and we'll negotiate something

Otherwise we'll get a permanent sub like FFox. Personally I'd love to play the Greeks if I wasn't in the game. It would be fun to see what I could do!

OK gang?

It's pointless to keep restarting games. All games have a controversy that needs to be sorted out - particularly if it's a diplo game....

	26-04-2002 02:12									#142
	Play an exciting game with winzity in. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Let's next game start on Saturday noon EST US time.
Each round will start on Saturday noon EST US time.

It will garanted give an exciting game!

winzity have decided to not start in any new games starting later than 3 PM EST US time. This decision will made the game availble for more european players too, I have many on my ICQ list that REALLY want to play in a new diplo game.

If not agreed we are going to setup our own game, and leave this one unexciting.

	01-05-2002 00:37									#143
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Deity... did you find a replacement for Winzity and a sub for Hydey?

Just wondering whether we would be playing the game this Saturday.

	01-05-2002 07:19									#144
	Why first kill a civ and after it be disappointed that it is unfair Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

because all players not have the same possiblities to use the freed land.

I have decided to stay in the game of educational reasons, so all those that have post above that it sucks will learn that my stay don't change anything.

I am sorry I thought the players in the game was more qualified in their understanding of a wars possible consequences than they was. Now they have we possiblity to learn that senario there a civs cities will be destroyed by an enemy. So the result will be the same as if you had remove the Greeks from the map.

The difference is that the Attacker(Azrecs) will get advantages of that I stay in the game, because he can capture some few cities and he is already on place so he can fast settle the land. He can also use the captured cities to settle the freed land so my stay really garants an unfair game. So it will be interesting to see the debate about it. The argument that my resign unbalance the game for the rest of the players in the game will never hold, my stay does it much more. Now you will face those consecuenses. So you don't need to trust me, you will learn I am right, by own experience.

Welcome to the lesson on Saturday night!

/winzity

	03-05-2002 12:19									#145
	Proposed Peace deal with Greeks! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

THE DEITIANS pity the poor Greeks and propose a new border, if Makeozafulldebottl agrees?

It's a very fair one to the Greeks considering how much damage they did to deitigod's land.

The Greeks may not send any ships with units anywhere but will be living uder the protection of THE DEITIANS and Aztecs. They must demilitarise and only build city improvements and trade... thus speaketh deitigod.

Attachment: greece.jpg
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	03-05-2002 16:16									#146
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Unacceptable to the Greeks!!!

We must have back our cities!

Prepare to die Deitians

	04-05-2002 06:14									#147
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quote: Originally posted by winzity Unacceptable to the Greeks!!! We must have back our cities! Prepare to die Deitians

Sorry, I should have posted the map in the story thread but at least it relates to setting up the players in the game!

So, Winzity, I take it that you will play on then?

We just need a sub for Hydey and we can play normal time Sat night (USA)

	04-05-2002 12:17									#148
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I will play BUT you have WAR with me!

	11-05-2002 17:33									#149
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is starting to wear me down, everyone!

Dang says he can't reliably continue the game.
Winzity says he'll play, but wants out.
Makeo wants to edit out Winzity to put him out of his misery!
But I got a few trade routes with Winz, I think.

It all sux

If Winz can happily continue and make a go of it (which is what I'd do) then we just need a good sub, like J23SE to play Dang's civ.

	12-05-2002 14:11									#150
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i hereby like to subscribe as sub, if you'd have me.

contact me with msn messenger. you can add me with my email address: wkerpershoek@hotmail.com