22-03-2002 12:36									#151
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Dan, I don’t get your point, Europe has satellites and it has atomic clocks, and US does not seem to have any qualms with that, but as soon as Europe combines both to build a GPS satellite network technological progress is hampered?

	22-03-2002 13:18									#152
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DinoDoc:

"You definately have a lawyer's talent for giving vague answers to questions, Roland."

What's vague about it ? There is a particular breed of rightwing politicians and bureaucrats that run "security". Pretty much the same anywhere. Just that yours seem to enjoy fool's freedom, and have chosen a sort of Machiavellism that is far beyond their intellectual capabilities. You can't rely on them. If it is in their hands, they might play with it. As a means of economic or military blackmail.

Dan:

What is the point ? Galileo is a second sat system, that is supposedly compatible to GPS. So current GPS equipment makers should have a headstart. Or is there some obscure tech involved that is only made available to european companies ?

Also, I doubt patents are so narrow that you could get much freeloading of it fur such a similar purpose.

	22-03-2002 17:52									#153
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quote: Originally posted by DanS But perhaps Japanese and American companies have patents on some of the higher quality receiver technology. They obtained those patents and market position fair and square based on the GPS system.

Lets not talk about patents. Patents, esp. in the US, are now such a ludicrous state of affairs it would be funny if there's not all that money involved.

A while ago I commented on the absurdity of patenting genes, but software patents aren't that far behind.

	22-03-2002 21:18									#154
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Yeah well, it wasn’t my intention to spark off a discussion about current patent law in the US. I was rather thinking of the principle behind patenting, namely to ensure that an inventor has the opportunity to reap the rewards of his labour before anyone else can use the knowledge to make money out of it. I think that’s a principle that most find acceptable, even if practice doesn’t always function as nice.
Knowing the principle is broadly accepted, I seems strange to me to claim that even after a period of 30 years, no-one besides the US should use the concept behind the GPS satellite network because that would discourage investment in aerospace R&D. I find it even more strange to claims this knowing that the building blocks, satellites and atomic clocks, are already widely used in Europe and elsewhere, which doesn’t appear to a problem to the US. (they’re not claiming this blocks technological progress)

Last edited by Colon on 22-03-2002 at 23:31

	22-03-2002 22:18									#155
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I'm not following the patent discussion. I don't care to much if the Euros want to dump a bunch of money in new navigation sattilites.

It sounds like a big make-work project...and it sounds like Roland sees this in more of a US vs Europe mode than a free-market versus not mode. But that doesn't surprise me. (reminds me of the "pride" in having Daimler take over Chrysler even though it cost German shareholders lots of money, was value-destroying.)

	22-03-2002 22:27									#156
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"It sounds like a big make-work project...and it sounds like Roland sees this in more of a US vs Europe mode than a free-market versus not mode."

Well so far I haven't heard anything that goes beyond europe building a sat system. Interesting question whether the sat infrastructure would be feasible as a privately funded project....

"reminds me of the "pride" in having Daimler take over Chrysler even though it cost German shareholders lots of money, was value-destroying."

My "pride" ? Chrysler is and was crap, the only issue was Dan's idea that it would become "american" because of stock trading volumes. The peeing contest was about stock markets, not the merger.

	22-03-2002 23:55									#157
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Colon: Please note that while the very basic technology is 30 years old, the commercial handset/equipment market is not. The order to make GPS a public good was signed in '83 and the the order to remove selective availability was signed in '00. Since technology progresses apace, I'm sure that there are quite a few valid patents (even that UR would recognize) that still have a lot of life left.

What Galileo would do is buy Europe's handset/equipment makers an almost exclusive seat at the Galileo standards table. But does Galileo represent an increase in the public good, or does it just represent a governmental "purchase" of market share for Europe's handset/equipment makers? Look at it from a day-to-day product development perspective and you'll get a clear idea of the value that this would represent.

The question of whether Galileo represents an increase in the public good has been my focus from the beginning of the thread. The military uses are a red herring.

Roland: The political persuasion of the military establishment is a lot more complicated than you suggest. It is true that GWB got much of the military vote in '00, but he is more of a center-right internationalist, and the military was voting against the last 8 years of Clinton. Bush is similar to his father. If you looked soley at Wolfowitz as an indication of the thoughts of the establishment, you would not get a balanced view, considering his inclinations and his role as attack dog.

	23-03-2002 00:05									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Well so far I haven't heard anything that goes beyond europe building a sat system. Interesting question whether the sat infrastructure would be feasible as a privately funded project....

The interesting question is "Should European governments spend taxpayer money on this proposal"?

	23-03-2002 00:15									#159
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A more accurate public system is only necessary if you need 1 meter resolution for mobile purposes. Using existing publicly available GPS systems, you can get below millimeter accuracy for fixed locations by taking more and more measurements from different satellites as they swing into view. JPL developed the software for use with geologic measurements like the movement of fault lines and the rise of hill/mountain tops.

	23-03-2002 00:52									#160
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Dan, could you explain how exactly Galileo buys European GPS equipment producers an exclusive seat on the table?

You’re right that GPS wasn’t open to civilian use until later on, but I don’t see how that would relevant. US has only itself to blame if it was late in exploiting the full potential of GPS.
And I don’t see what sort of patent could protect the GPS satellite system, because as I said Europeans already produce and use the building blocks. AFAIK to copy the concept they only need to combine both and launch it to into space. Or am I missing something?

	23-03-2002 01:15									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Roland If it is in their hands, they might play with it. As a means of economic or military blackmail.

I've yet to see a reason to support this assumption that doesn't resort to rampant and quite frankly unjustified paranoia/Machiavellism that is far beyond one's intellectual capabilities. What trend do you see in American foreign policy that would lead you to believe that it engaging in economic or especially military blackmail against an ally is a possibility?

	23-03-2002 01:21									#162
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