18-03-2002 11:42									#61
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Who else starts humming the Indigo Girl's song whenever they see this thread title?

	18-03-2002 16:25									#62
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For years, the Brits (and maybe others) have had "differential GPS".

It uses a GPS receiver in a ground station at a precisely-known location. It receives US civilian-grade GPS position data, which might indicate (for instance) that the station has moved ten meters northwest. The station then broadcasts a signal saying, in effect, "today GPS is out by ten meters southeast, compensate accordingly".

It's available to civilians and is accurate to about one meter, maybe less.

	18-03-2002 17:07									#63
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it's obvious from this thread.

Americans are jealous of European tech achievements.

Don't worry though, we might let you use our superior technology. For a charge of course.

	18-03-2002 17:11									#64
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That Skilehrer life is no good for ol' GP....

Read some piss funny stuff on bloomberg...

quote: European leaders added a new source of conflict over the weekend by agreeing to develop a 3.4 billion euro ($3 billion) satellite navigation system that the U.S. has said could represent an unfair subsidy to European contractors. European manufacturers that stand to benefit include European Aeronautic Space & Defense Co., BAE Systems Plc, Thales SA and Alcatel SA. The U.S. State Department said last week it ``sees no compelling need'' for the project, which will compete with the U.S. military-run global positioning system.

Whenever the US accepts the principle that pork spending is illegal under WTO rules, the yanks are toast in any proceeding....

	18-03-2002 17:17									#65
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quote: Where does it say we'll be spending money on it?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/newec...tech2711a.shtml

India, Israel, South Africa and Australia are among those who have expressed interest in Galileo, New York Times has reported.

Canada has been financially involved in the early stages of Galileo while Russia has lent technical expertise and is looking for a bigger role. China has shown a strong desire to participate in the project, the paper said.

	18-03-2002 17:18									#66
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another reason for Galileo:

An independent study released by PricewaterhouseCoopers predicts that Galileo would have considerable economic benefits.

	18-03-2002 17:28									#67
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See here for confirmation of Canada's involvement in Galileo.

	18-03-2002 17:37									#68
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yee, go Canada.

Perhaps it's time for Canada to join the European Union...

	18-03-2002 18:27									#69
	Re: Galileo -- Why? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DanS Can somebody please explain to me the advantages of Galileo and why Europe is willing to spend $3B on it? Who's pushing it and why?(..)

So that France and Italy can feel that they and EU are potential threat to USA

	18-03-2002 19:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OK, checking the specs, it seems like they're spending this kind of coin to go from a ~4 meter mean error to a 1 meter mean error (GPS has sub-1 meter resolution, but only for licensed and military users). Are there any big applications that would require a 1 meter mean error?

At least one application I know of - ground transportation. I helped do a cost / benefit on this a couple years ago. Most of the US rail system (and I think UK, maybe Europe too) is built with tracks about 15 feet between center lines. Four to five meter resolution is just coarse enough that you can't tell which of two opposing tracks a train is on ... BIG problem if you are trying to design a computerized train control and safety system to prevent collisions. Going to a one meter resolution would solve the problem. Similar issues for highways too, where the lanes are about 12 feet on center IIRC. But the issue is not nearly as critical here, since cars and trucks can change lanes more readily. While some applications exist, whether Galileo is worth the investment just for these applications is another question entirely.

	18-03-2002 19:59									#71
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AS: Thank you for that. Would a 1 meter mean error be sufficient in the rail context? For instance, this might allow a 2 meter or higher error two standard deviations from the mean.

Jack the Bodiless: Good point.

MarkL: Is that the auditing side of the house, or the consulting side of the house?

Roland: You're getting very close to the answer. Try to rephrase it.

	18-03-2002 20:27									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You're getting very close to the answer. Try to rephrase it.

No need for that, and you know it.

	18-03-2002 20:29									#73
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Well, if you don't at least specify the market that you're trying to unfairly steal, then I won't believe that you've hit it on the head.

	18-03-2002 20:39									#74
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Nice try to sow confusion, but it is obviously a measure to open a market to competition that had been previously monopolized, and to be self relying in a field that had been previsouly monopolized by the NS state.

	18-03-2002 20:53									#75
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Roland: It looks like you need to be led to water. Besides, it's about the end of page 4, and I'm getting a little impatient.

Europe is trying to unfairly steal the GPS equipment market. Not the aerospace portion of it (i.e., the $3 billion to be spent on the project--what everybody is focusing on), but rather the communications/receiver portion of it.

This market is expected to explode in the next couple of years to well over $10 billion per annum. Europe doesn't compete in this market--I think it sells less than 20% of the solutions. Japan and the US are the big players.

So why not put our finger on the scales and subsidize the Euro communications companies so that they are guaranteed to be players? It has worked so well in the aerospace market.

This kind of thinking pisses me off to no end. The Japanese and American companies have created a market from scratch (from nothing), have nurtured it through the lean times and now we're getting all of these European free-loaders! Yes, technological free-loaders!

	18-03-2002 21:02									#76
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I doubt this is the actual goal, but if it is, why not.

"So why not put our finger on the scales and subsidize the Euro communications companies so that they are guaranteed to be players? It has worked so well in the aerospace market."

Just shows that we are much more efficient at the subsidising game. A few loans and guarantees, compared to all the pork barrel spending.

"This kind of thinking pisses me off to no end."

Then give your head a little rest.

	18-03-2002 21:07									#77
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

DanS: Now you know how the rest of the world feels about US policies to protect it's own markets. And even after the WTO rules against the US in several cases, still they don't change their policies. It's only fair Europe is allowed to do the same things the US is.

	18-03-2002 21:08									#78
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"I doubt this is the actual goal, but if it is, why not."

Because it's anti-competitive bullsh!t behavior which distorts the market. This kind of thinking has already destroyed the aerospace market. Everybody is sucking at the *** of the state rather than innovating.

	18-03-2002 21:11									#79
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quote: This kind of thinking has already destroyed the aerospace market. Everybody is sucking at the *** of the state rather than innovating.

True enough. How much money does the US gov give to NASA and aerospace companies?

	18-03-2002 21:19									#80
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MarkL: NASA gets about $15 billion per annum. The black (defense & intel) space community gets about the same amount; maybe a little less. On the aerospace side, it's a whole lot of business.

Overall, it's damn near impossible to innovate in this market, although the Russians have done their best, considering that they have some sheltering due to their exchange rate.

Re technology and open markets, the US is quite open to competition on its home turf.

	18-03-2002 21:36									#81
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"Re technology and open markets, the US is quite open to competition on its home turf."

LOL!

"Because it's anti-competitive bullsh!t behavior which distorts the market. This kind of thinking has already destroyed the aerospace market."

The US has a gigantic military research budget, and the dual use spin-offs come to Boeing and co at no cost. Much of your military spending is pork anyway.

(Oh btw, the next thingie is brewing already. The Commission is considering anti-dumping measures against ia US airlines that got a bundle from dubya's bailout.)

How exactly is the aerospace market destroyed ? Because Boeing no longer has a monopoly ?

	18-03-2002 22:11									#82
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"LOL!"

Well, in the areas that I know and deal with (computer software and hardware), it is very open. This is a huge industry.

"The US has a gigantic military research budget, and the dual use spin-offs come to Boeing and co at no cost."

That's true. But spin-offs are new tech and for some of it the Europeans/Asians have an even shot of commercialization. Consider the Japanese strengths in GPS handsets and other equipment, for instance.

"Much of your military spending is pork anyway."

Yes, but the pork mostly doesn't affect the markets of other countries.

"The Commission is considering anti-dumping measures against ia US airlines that got a bundle from dubya's bailout."

That's a tough call. I don't blame Europe for complaining, but these aren't open markets anyway. I just don't want the open markets that we do have to be fvcked up by unhelpful government actions. I especially don't want to see Europe's government actions fvck up American markets.

	18-03-2002 22:22									#83
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quote: I especially don't want to see Europe's government actions fvck up American markets.

And the other way around? (airlines, steel, etc)

	18-03-2002 22:25									#84
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The airlines I've already addressed. The steel is a temporary measure, but I agree that it sucks and is unfair, if not technically illegal.

But what does this have to do with technology, anyway?

Last edited by DanS on 18-03-2002 at 22:32

	18-03-2002 23:06									#85
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Roland:

quote: The US has a gigantic military research budget, and the dual use spin-offs come to Boeing and co at no cost.

I think we have been through this before. Are you saying the basic research results in both military and civilian products? If so, these are joint products (military, civilian) which arise from a common cost (research). As any good economist will tell you (in this case Nobel Prize winner George Stigler's standard text, The Theory of Price, p. 165), "There is no corresponding possibility of calculating the average cost of one of several products. .... Such an allocation must be arbitrary, for there is no one basis of allocation that is more persuasive than others." Unless there is something else to this, the EU aerospace argument is economically baseless.

	19-03-2002 06:34									#86
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Roland, why don't you for once take an anti-Europe/pro-US position. You seem to take everything as some kind of **** size contest.

	19-03-2002 12:59									#87
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AS:

Yup, we have been through this before. And it is essentially an unquantifiable subsidy. Pretty much like the loans and guarantees for airbus, as I doubt you could find any market rate for those, at least for the initial ones. So there is little point in the permanent "evil, evil airbus" whining from the states.

"Unless there is something else to this, the EU aerospace argument is economically baseless."

Why ?

GP: Well, find me a topic where the US is right....

	19-03-2002 19:59									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "Unless there is something else to this, the EU aerospace argument is economically baseless." Why ?

The spending for basic research can not be allocated to either military OR civilian products, so you can't call it a subsidy for the commercial products.

And I am sure there is some consultant out there who could hang a rate of return on the Airbus loans. IIRC, the French Minister explicitly said the point was to make the loans at below market rates because of the beneficial (to EU) employment and market share effects. So state sponsored capitalism lives on the other side of the pond too.


evil, evil Airbus....

	19-03-2002 20:12									#90
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"The spending for basic research can not be allocated to either military OR civilian products, so you can't call it a subsidy for the commercial products."

If you say that in economics, only quantifiable things exist....

It doesn't matter much, because in the worst case, we'd have to replace loans with research grants.

"And I am sure there is some consultant out there who could hang a rate of return on the Airbus loans."

I'm sure there is a consultant out there who'd tell you how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

"IIRC, the French Minister explicitly said the point was to make the loans at below market rates...."

Doesn't mean that they had any idea where market rates would be, other than "very high".

"So state sponsored capitalism lives on the other side of the pond too. "

Sure.