21-03-2002 02:23									#121
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quote: MarkL: Well, allies rely on each other. The US relies on Europe politically, if not always militarily.

Nowadays, it's obvious the US is relying less and less on Europe politically, and is taking on a more unilateral approach. So it's only fair Europe is going to rely less on the US militarily.


Also, you haven't responded to the comments that Galileo is superior to the GPS we euros get to use.

	21-03-2002 02:25									#122
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"This Euro systems appears to be more adaptable to consumer uses and may spur competetion for consumer applications."

How is it more adaptable? Is that adaptability worth anything? $3 billion+?

MarkL: I have responded throughout this thread regarding that. I asked the question of whether a 3.5 meter mean error now versus a 1 meter mean error in 2008 (or whatever it is--it seems to be whatever the writer wants it to be) is important for industry.

That question is still on the table.

Last edited by DanS on 21-03-2002 at 02:36

	21-03-2002 02:45									#123
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quote: I asked the question of whether a 3.5 meter mean error now versus a 1 meter mean error in 2008 (or whatever it is--it seems to be whatever the writer wants it to be) is important for industry.

It is for the military. And right now, only the US military has a system that accurate. With Galileo, other militaries can use a system that's just as accurate.

	21-03-2002 02:53									#124
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why do you care what we do?

if you think it's a waste of money so what's it to you?

From what I see there's only one concern in the US and that is the Galileo won't be under US control.

So the real question is why is that? (or so your policy makers say).

	21-03-2002 02:59									#125
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"With Galileo, other militaries can use a system that's just as accurate."

1) Will it be just as accurate for military uses? The mean error for the military is probably about a foot.

2) Are other militaries precluded from using military GPS? The sources I have don't state either way.

Paiktis: I keep raising my objection, which is that it represents an unfair subsidy to European handset and equipment makers versus their Japanese and American couterparts. These subsidies reduce the overall incentives for companies to innovate in the market.

Last edited by DanS on 21-03-2002 at 03:05

	21-03-2002 03:10									#126
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Paiktis: I keep raising my objection, which is that it represents an unfair subsidy to European handset and equipment makers versus their Japanese and American couterparts. These subsidies reduce the overall incentives for companies to innovate in the market.

Airbus is subsidized. Hasn't stoped it from innovating.

Besides Galileo will create around 140.000 new jobs

	21-03-2002 03:22									#127
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about unfair competition to american or japanese companies... come ooooown

Steel is a pretty free market after all and what about all those tons of european goods that are under 100% tarifs in the US?

	21-03-2002 03:24									#128
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Paiktis: Much of the aerospace market is all screwed up by these subsidies. A vast wasteland of non-innovation and entrenched interests that rely on government handouts. That's the market I was keeping in mind as the case-in-point of what we should avoid.

Re tarrifs, most technology products from Europe are not subject to tarrifs. Philips does a booming business in the States, for instance. In another industry in which I am familiar, pesticides, European products are not subject to tarrifs.

	21-03-2002 03:34									#129
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Paiktis: Much of the aerospace market is all screwed up by these subsidies. A vast wasteland of non-innovation and entrenched interests that rely on government handouts. That's the market I was keeping in mind as the case-in-point of what we should avoid.

The biggest plane in human history will be constructed by the european subsidized Airbus in a few years. How's innovation killed?

quote: Re tarrifs, most technology products from Europe are not subject to tarrifs. Philips does a booming business in the States, for instance. In another industry in which I am familiar, pesticides, European products are not subject to tarrifs.

yeah but plenty of other products are. Mainly food and luxury goods. That's about "unfair" subsides I mean you have a pretty much protectionist market in many areas. And mind you I'm not a proponent of ultra free markets.

	21-03-2002 03:36									#130
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quote: I mean you have a pretty much protectionist market in many areas

*cough* softwood lumber *cough*

	21-03-2002 03:38									#131
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The biggest plane in human history will be constructed by the european subsidized Airbus in a few years. How's innovation killed?

Someone has decided to revive the Spruce Goose?

	21-03-2002 03:45									#132
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Someone has decided to revive the Spruce Goose?

eat it Moneypenny


The A3XX will be colossal. It will carry between 480 and 650 passengers on two decks and in a no-frills all-economy version it could cram in 850. It could be in service by 2005.

	21-03-2002 03:48									#133
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Osama's endorsed it as "more bang for the buck".

	21-03-2002 03:50									#134
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Osama's endorsed it as "more bang for the buck".

Service with a smile hey who was the one advocating FREE markets? (joking)

	21-03-2002 03:51									#135
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The A3XX will be colossal. It will carry between 480 and 650 passengers on two decks

IIRC, the Spruce Goose could carry 700 passengers easily.

	21-03-2002 03:52									#136
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Only to a watery grave.

Airbuses hardly ever crash.

uh...wait

	21-03-2002 03:55									#137
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc IIRC, the Spruce Goose could carry 700 passengers easily.

850 for the A3xx and it's the biggest so you better stuff that goose

	21-03-2002 03:58									#138
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The Spruce Goose also flew exactly one time, IIRC.

	21-03-2002 04:01									#139
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The Spruce Goose also flew exactly one time, IIRC.

american "engineering"...

	21-03-2002 04:02									#140
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http://www.aafo.com/goose/

	21-03-2002 04:06									#141
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 850 for the A3xx and it's the biggest so you better stuff that goose

Is 150 extra passengers the most you could improve on decades old technology?

KH: That's correct.

	21-03-2002 04:06									#142
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my God just look at it

Attachment: ανώνυμο22.bmp
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	21-03-2002 04:07									#143
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OTOH hand don't

'night all

	21-03-2002 09:39									#144
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Roland, you are a sophist...and annoying about it.

	21-03-2002 14:14									#145
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Thanks, GP.... although on the annoyance factor, I still stand in awe at the respective power of America inc.

Dan:

The US "security" establishment is hostile to everything and anything. From domestic opposition over allies to real or made-up enemies.

As for the subsidy point.... Galileo is sponsored as a sat system. AFAIK the equipment is supposed to be compatible with GPS. How exactly is this bringing any unfair advantage to european equipment makers ? Even incompatible standards often do little to further your own industry. Best example are the bizarre phone-plugs we had here...

	21-03-2002 21:03									#146
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Roland: Domestic opposition over allies? That's an odd phrase. Care to elaborate?

"The US "security" establishment is hostile to everything and anything. From domestic opposition over allies to real or made-up enemies."

That's not a very nuanced view of the "establishment".

	21-03-2002 21:34									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Roland: Domestic opposition over allies? That's an odd phrase. Care to elaborate?

LOL. Ok, shall we do the next round of conversation in german ?

	21-03-2002 23:56									#148
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Dan, the GPS system is based on satellites and the atomic clock, both are easily 40 years old and widely used by Europe already, and the system was conceived nearly 30 years ago. If this had been a private project and the concept had been patented somehow, surely the patent would have expired by 2008?

	22-03-2002 00:00									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Roland The US "security" establishment is hostile to everything and anything. From domestic opposition over allies to real or made-up enemies.

You definately have a lawyer's talent for giving vague answers to questions, Roland. You can restrict your answer to high politics if it will narrow the answer somewhat.

	22-03-2002 03:37									#150
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Colon: I'm not arguing whether or not you can do it. Clearly, you can.

But perhaps Japanese and American companies have patents on some of the higher quality receiver technology. They obtained those patents and market position fair and square based on the GPS system. Europe has been out of the game somewhat, and the game is becoming lucrative, so European companies have a choice. They can either create their own innovation and patent it and create market position based on cost or another differentiator or they can have their government create a separate system that is different, but doesn't represent a substantial improvement (still an outstanding question to which I haven't really heard much of an answer).

Now we could play this faux innovation game to eternity. The US or Japan or whoever could innovate and Europe could freeload. But eventually, nobody is going to want to innovate in the private sphere because they've been burned too many times. They only have so many chips with which to play poker. Overall, you have to be rewarded handsomely for innovation--otherwise it isn't worthwhile.

Now don't get me wrong. Not all industry is about innovation. Rather more about execution and costs (bricks or softwood lumber or steel). But this is one of those markets where it is pretty much all about innovation at this point.