20-03-2002 02:53									#31
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quote: Like I said atheism is not a postive doctrine or ideology but a negative stance in repect to a supernatural belief. Atheists have about as much in common as people who don't believe in elves a lot of times.

Fine, but the Soviet Union and Communist China were both atheist states.

quote: Actually the guy was very religious and did think he was doing God's work. But given what your saying is true...how was that in any way a "counter-example"? I nor did Dawkin's ever say religion was the only thing that creates terrorists or violent fanatics. Only that it's a major thing which does.

No, I was responding to your implication that if a Christian commits a crime it was because of Christianity which is patently false.

quote: That's pure speculation, but in any respect he did promote it and many of the Nazis believed in the Christian God. In fact Nazi proopganda went so far at one point as to suggest that Jesus was an Aryan(which isn't too bogus for the Nazis, seeing as Hitler started saying that the Japanese were Aryan.)

You just proved my point - the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the same reason they talked about God - propaganda and appeal to the common German citizen, who was in many cases religious.

	20-03-2002 02:56									#32
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quote: Maybe but these people were atheists.

Like I said atheism is a negative stance not a positive doctrine. It thus promotes nothing and atheists have about as much in common as people who don't believe in elves do.

quote: So? It wasn't in the name of God or anything.

The guy was still very religious and thought he was doing God's will. Read the Turner Diaries, which was this guy's main inspiration. Also then, how is it a "counter-example", I don't recall anyone mentioning that religion was the sole basis for these acts. Only one big factor in the equation, a lot of times.

quote: Hitler was about as religious as the Easter Bunny, and whatever he said was for political propaganda only.

That's pure speculation. But regardless of that, Hitler did promote religion. ANd many Nazis believed in the Christian God. It went so far that propogandists were saying Jesus was an Aryan, which wasn't that much of a stretch in the Nazi system where the Japanese were also considered Aryans.

Sorry about re-typing this post it got deleted by accident.

	20-03-2002 02:58									#33
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And my responses are below

	20-03-2002 03:02									#34
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quote: No, I was responding to your implication that if a Christian commits a crime it was because of Christianity which is patently false.

To do that you would have to disprove all my examples, and show why religion was not the motivation. You have yet to do that even with the Oklahoma Bomber.

Look at it this way: Even if the Oklahoma bomber was not mitivated by religion.It doesn't mean that the other people were motivated by religion. There is just nothing that gets you from one point to another. Also keep in mind that people can be motivated by more than one thing: religion and something else. Hence not only do you have to show the presence of another motivation but show that religion didn't factor into it.

quote: You just proved my point - the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the same reason they talked about God - propaganda and appeal to the common German citizen, who was in many cases religious.

No, the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the sake of a political alliance. They talked about God because belief in God can inspire people to do violent acts of self-sacrifice. In that way, you actually proved my point.

Yes, finally saw them.

	20-03-2002 03:08									#35
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quote: To do that you would have to disprove all my examples, and show why religion was not the motivation. You have yet to do that even with the Oklahoma Bomber. Look at it this way: Even if the Oklahoma bomber was not mitivated by religion.It doesn't mean that the other people were motivated by religion. There is just nothing that gets you from one point to another. Also keep in mind that people can be motivated by more than one thing: religion and something else. Hence not only do you have to show the presence of another motivation but show that religion didn't factor into it.

So you think that if someone CLAIMING to be a Christian murders someone, it was because of Christianity?

quote: No, the Nazis called the Japanese Aryans for the sake of a political alliance. They talked about God because belief in God can inspire people to do violent acts of self-sacrifice. In that way, you actually proved my point.

Hitler talking about God didn't make anyone braver on the battlefield, it just made the people feel they had something in common with Hitler and thus support him.

quote: To do that you would have to disprove all my examples, and show why religion was not the motivation.

Give me a few weeks to get my other arm back so I can type properly - typing one-handed is really hard and tedious

	20-03-2002 03:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist Which was set up by a Christian.

This factored into the decision to bomb the federal building in what way exactly?

	20-03-2002 04:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This factored into the decision to bomb the federal building in what way exactly?

Isn't it obvious? He was Christian! That's the reason any Christian does anything!

Jeez, DinoDoc... what a stupid question!

	20-03-2002 06:09									#38
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man, it's getting crowded in that village idiot hat.

	20-03-2002 06:50									#39
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Everyone makes assumptions.

Some of those assumptions (such as killing a bunch of heretics will get you into heaven) tend to be harmful to others.

Many religions assert these kinds of assumptions. Many non-religous philosophies also assert these kinds of assumptions.

'Nuff said.

	20-03-2002 08:02									#40
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quote: Branch Davidians - these guys did nothing wrong, although the US federal government did

um wrong! David Koresh reoutintelysexually molested the children in the compound and then stockpiled weapons. When the government went to arrest him/them FOR stockpiling weapons..that's where everything went awry.

THis seems like it could be a NICE debate between you guys.

quote: Which was set up by a Christian.

SInce when was Tim McVeigh an XIan?

quote: I saw plenty of Islamic clergy on TV condemning 9/11.

We also saw plenty of islams: politicians, common, and clergy: condemming it.

quote: Actually Hitler was a Catholic and many Nazis believed in God. Hitler at one point went so far as to say the "we need believing people" because atheism lacks a moral underpinning.

Hitler was also majorly into the occult....which is where he derived the swastika from.

quote: But that doesn't mean that the action violated Islamic principles or that Islam is a religion of peace

by my muslim friends, i was always led to believe otherwise. that it specifically states in their tenets that militant behavior is a sin against allah.

	20-03-2002 09:35									#41
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quote: When the government went to arrest him/them FOR stockpiling weapons..that's where everything went awry.

Right to bear arms is protected by the 2nd and 9th Amendments.

As to child molestation, let's not blame that on Christianity

	20-03-2002 09:49									#42
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Ahh, but there are limits on what weaponry. Do you really think anyone needs an automatic rifle to just to hunt game?

Jimbo: "He's comin' right for us!"

	20-03-2002 09:52									#43
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quote: Ahh, but there are limits on what weaponry.

Wrong, unless you can point out limitations in the Constitution (don't bother trying, you can't).

	20-03-2002 09:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Right to bear arms is protected by the 2nd and 9th Amendments.

9th ammendment? I don't want to ever see you complain about the SCOTUS expanding its own power again.

	20-03-2002 09:54									#45
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(must....resist.....urge....to post in religion thread....made vow to self)

	20-03-2002 09:56									#46
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quote: 9th ammendment? I don't want to ever see you complain about the SCOTUS expanding its own power again.

Right to privacy is perfectly justifiable under the 9th...gun ownership could fall under that, or 9th Amendment implied property rights.

	20-03-2002 10:00									#47
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Right to privacy is perfectly justifiable under the 9th

We aren't argueing the right to privacy.

quote: ...gun ownership could fall under that,

I'd actually like to see that arguement.

quote: or 9th Amendment implied property rights.

Yeah and AA (along with the drug war, etc.) is justified under the federal governments constitutionally mandated power to regulate interstate commerce.

	20-03-2002 10:02									#48
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Hmm, that atomic bomb i'm building in the back yard is perfectly safe then, at least according to the constitution. It would be considered an "arm" wouldn't it?

I wonder if anyone ever tried to give a bear arms?

	20-03-2002 10:04									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone I wonder if anyone ever tried to give a bear arms?

Probably not voluntarily. Usually they just rip 'em off.

What an odd threadjacking we have here.

	20-03-2002 10:05									#50
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quote: I'd actually like to see that arguement.

Actually, privacy restricts forced gun registration, tracking, and waiting periods, IMO, and the implied property rights prevent restricting actual ownership.

quote: Yeah and AA (along with the drug war, etc.) is justified under the federal governments constitutionally mandated power to regulate interstate commerce.

Really? I take it you aren't familiar with Justice Thomas's arguments to the contrary, then. I believe you can find examples of his arguments in US v Lopez and US v Morisson, but I could be wrong on the exact cases.

	20-03-2002 10:06									#51
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quote: Hmm, that atomic bomb i'm building in the back yard is perfectly safe then, at least according to the constitution. It would be considered an "arm" wouldn't it?

Safe? I wouldn't think so. That's not the argument, though, is it?

	20-03-2002 10:11									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Really? I take it you aren't familiar with Justice Thomas's arguments to the contrary, then.

Unless Heart of Atlanta v. United States has been overturned (sub silentio or otherwise) without my knowledge, Justice Thomas's arguements fall on deaf ears.

	20-03-2002 10:14									#53
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quote: Unless Heart of Atlanta v. United States has been overturned (sub silentio or otherwise) without my knowledge, Justice Thomas's arguements fall on deaf ears.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean his arguments are in correct. And for the record Heart of Atlanta v US was a horrible decision that should be overturned.

	20-03-2002 10:18									#54
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So, no matter the potential for mass destruction, it's OK? Sorry, too many idiots. You, and many people may be able to handle the responsibility, but not the majority of the population. Although it only takes one person to spoil everyone's fun.

	20-03-2002 10:33									#55
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quote: So, no matter the potential for mass destruction, it's OK?

Yup.

In any case, I would submit that the human brain is capable of worse and more destructive things than any weapon, under the right circumstances.

	20-03-2002 10:44									#56
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Certainly, but that doesn't mean his arguments are in correct.

I never said that they weren't correct. Just that they don't represent the majority opinion of the Court who likes reading into the Constitution things that aren't there which the 9th ammendment is extremely friendly to.

quote: Yup.

Interesting. Even Berz draws the line at nukes. Granted the whole idea is stupid to begin with.

	20-03-2002 10:50									#57
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quote: I never said that they weren't correct. Just that they don't represent the majority opinion of the Court who likes reading into the Constitution things that aren't there which the 9th ammendment is extremely friendly to.

Actually the 9th covers pretty much anything, so long as we are talking about rights rather than entitlements.

quote: Interesting. Even Berz draws the line at nukes. Granted the whole idea is stupid to begin with.

He does? You sure? Wraith certainly doesn't, nor do I.

	20-03-2002 10:53									#58
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The problems with religions are:

1. They are authoritarian. Words are passed from the top down.

2. Questions are not allowed. Faith is the thing.

	20-03-2002 10:58									#59
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually the 9th covers pretty much anything, so long as we are talking about rights rather than entitlements.

Given your opposition to the 14th ammendment, I fail to see how you can oppose State gun control measures.

quote: He does? You sure?

IIRC. If he's ever gets on ICQ again, I'll ask him to be sure.

	20-03-2002 10:59									#60
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UR: We aren't discussing religions anymore.