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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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Believe it or not I thought the article was kinda funny - but to the point, can you give any examples of suicide bombers, or whatever, in any religion besides Islam? And even in Islam, it's widely recognized that suicide bombing is a perversion of the religion.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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[quote]what about Buddists monks in Tibet..some have set themselves on fire in protest.[/quote
And also in South Vietnam - but this is what I would call a victimless crime as they aren't hurting anyone.
[quote]umm...The CHildren's Crusade in the early 1000's......that was a no brainer suicide march right there[/quote
Again, this was also different - these children were not targeting civilians specifically nor was suicide the intent.
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devilmunchkin
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first circle of the inferno
Jul 2001
time: 05:18
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the children's crusade targeted the muslims
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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Sure, but as with all the other Crusades this isn't an example of suicide bombing which was the point as I understood it.
If you want to compare the killing habits of religious people and atheists, I can always bring up the Holocaust, Stalin, and Communist China and Cambodia, to name a few.
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
If you want to compare the killing habits of religious people and atheists, I can always bring up the Holocaust, Stalin, and Communist China and Cambodia, to name a few. |
For the love of everything that has even been consider holy by everyone who has ever lived, please don't. That would get awfully tired, awfully quick, and would progress to nowhere. True, much like anything else here, but it wouldn't even lend itself to comedy, making it tedious.
LR, I loathe fundamentalism. Athiests can be fundamentalist too. And you are teetering dangerously on the brink.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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Look, for example, at the large number of volunteers in most of America's wars.
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Caligastia
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What is the point of blaming religion for 9/11? I hardly think that the terrorists could be considered representative of "religion".
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
For the love of everything that has even been consider holy by everyone who has ever lived, please don't. That would get awfully tired, awfully quick, and would progress to nowhere. True, much like anything else here, but it wouldn't even lend itself to comedy, making it tedious. |
Well the point is that if one is going to say that mass murder is the fault of religion, I can make plent of counter-examples.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
What is the point of blaming religion for 9/11? I hardly think that the terrorists could be considered representative of "religion". |
Exactly, and they were condemned by Muslims worldwide.
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Well the point is that if one is going to say that mass murder is the fault of religion, I can make plent of counter-examples. |
Oh, I'm aware of that. I've seen that thread. Many, many times. I have no desire to see it again.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
Oh, I'm aware of that. I've seen that thread. Many, many times. I have no desire to see it again. |
Again, I'm simply responding to the arguments.
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Guynemer
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We really ought to know better... my fault too...
Don't feed the troll!
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
And also in South Vietnam - but this is what I would call a victimless crime as they aren't hurting anyone. |
Actually these "protestors" tend to bring certain members of their family along with them. One including an 11 year old girl that I doubt was prepared to "protest" by burning herself with her Falun Gong elders.
As for Christians while I can't name many suicide bombers I can name cases where Christians killed themselves and other for their religion in cases of: Jonestown,the Branch Davidians, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Witch Trials, Lebanon, anti-homosexual/bisexual hate crimes and the bombing of abortion clinics that continue to this day. As a matter of fact, shortly after 9/11- Planned Parenthood recieved 170 hate letters containing a powdery substance.
Notice how Bush has called the attack on Afghanistan a "crusade".
As for the Jewish faith, there is Goldstein(a physicist) who shot thirty muslims in prayer...while in a mosque. Decked out in full Jewish garb.He knew he'd never get out of there alive and he didn't.
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
Exactly, and they were condemned by Muslims worldwide.
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Not really, and even if they were "condemed", the violence is justifiable in the Islamic religion(if they can say it was in defense of Islam). For more information on this I suggest you go to this site made by former Muslims: http://golshan.com/
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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And what about the fatwa issued against Salman Rushdie? Or the execution of Dr. Younus Shaikh for the crime of blasphemy in Pakistan? Those recieve condemnations as well?
In fact why don't Muslims seem to be condeming policies that makes blasphemy a crime punishable by death in Muslim countries like Pakistan?
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Seeker
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London Ontario
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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The Children's Crusade was one of those fascinating enthusiasms that swept across Europe occasionally.
A kid in northern France claimed that St.X appeared to him in a vision and said that he would deliver Jerusalem to him, and that they could walk there. Supposedly, God would part the Meditteranean and allow them to walk...
A lot of stupid kids believed, and a huge mob or 'army' of children gathered and slowly moved south, enduring all sorts of hardships and miss-haps. They were a great nuisance to the locals because they ate everything when they moved through.
They actually made it to where Marseille is today, but God failed to part the sea and a diverse number of horrible fates awaited. Most were enslaved, or sold by the local lord, some burnt for heresy or false prophecy, a lot starved, got sick, and died. The rest went home.
I believe at one point they were following a duck or goose (a divine messenger).
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
Actually these "protestors" tend to bring certain members of their family along with them. One including an 11 year old girl that I doubt was prepared to "protest" by burning herself with her Falun Gong elders. |
Can you cite that? It's certainly possible, but I hadn't heard that before.
quote:
As for Christians while I can't name many suicide bombers I can name cases where Christians killed themselves and other for their religion in cases of: Jonestown,the Branch Davidians, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Witch Trials, Lebanon, anti-homosexual/bisexual hate crimes and the bombing of abortion clinics that continue to this day. As a matter of fact, shortly after 9/11- Planned Parenthood recieved 170 hate letters containing a powdery substance. |
I wouldn't call most of that terrorism. I'll break it down:
Jonestown - can't place it right offhand
Branch Davidians - these guys did nothing wrong, although the US federal government did
Crusades - War, not terrorism, and we can find plenty of non-Christian examples of war
Inquisition - counter-example is the Holocaust, which was non-Christian and much, much worse
Witch Trials - You have me there I guess, except in that Christians today don't do that
Lebanon - Again, plent of non-Christian counterexamples
Anti-homosexual/bisexual hate crimes and the bombing of abortion clinics - Counter-example: Oklahoma City
Look, I'll concede that people commit and have commited crimes and started wars in the name of religion if you concede that the most costly wars of the past few hundred years have not been about religion at all and that the majority of murderers, for example, are areligious.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
They actually made it to where Marseille is today, but God failed to part the sea and a diverse number of horrible fates awaited. Most were enslaved, or sold by the local lord, some burnt for heresy or false prophecy, a lot starved, got sick, and died. The rest went home. |
Did any drown? I am picturing them walking into the sea like a bunch of lemmings...
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
Not really, and even if they were "condemed", the violence is justifiable in the Islamic religion(if they can say it was in defense of Islam). For more information on this I suggest you go to this site made by former Muslims |
I saw plenty of Islamic clergy on TV condemning 9/11.
quote:
And what about the fatwa issued against Salman Rushdie? Or the execution of Dr. Younus Shaikh for the crime of blasphemy in Pakistan? Those recieve condemnations as well? |
I don't see how this relates, honestly. You went from talking about people committing suicide bombings for religion to telling me about the internal affairs of Pakistan.
quote:
In fact why don't Muslims seem to be condeming policies that makes blasphemy a crime punishable by death in Muslim countries like Pakistan? |
See above.
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
Well the point is that if one is going to say that mass murder is the fault of religion, I can make plent of counter-examples. |
All under Marxist dogma which is much more like religion than not. Especially under cruel dictators like Stalin.
Which was set up by a Christian.
quote:
counter-example is the Holocaust, which was non-Christian and much, much worse |
Actually Hitler was a Catholic and many Nazis believed in God. Hitler at one point went so far as to say the "we need believing people" because atheism lacks a moral underpinning.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
All under Marxist dogma which is much more like religion than not. Especially under cruel dictators like Stalin. |
Maybe but these people were atheists.
quote:
Which was set up by a Christian. |
So? It wasn't in the name of God or anything.
quote:
Actually Hitler was a Catholic and many Nazis believed in God. Hitler at one point went so far as to say the "we need believing people" because atheism lacks a moral underpinning. |
Hitler was about as religious as the Easter Bunny, and whatever he said was for political propaganda only.
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
I saw plenty of Islamic clergy on TV condemning 9/11. |
Of course some would, they were in serious trouble. What was their basis for doing so though? None really. And btw I bring up Pakistani law in order to illustrate typical Islamic policy which these same Clergy men for some reason feel reluctant to bring up and condem. That to me sounds like hypocrisy and a subversion of the truth on what is going on in Islam.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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quote:
Of course some would, they were in serious trouble. What was their basis for doing so though? None really. And btw I bring up Pakistani law in order to illustrate typical Islamic policy which these same Clergy men for some reason feel reluctant to bring up and condem. That to me sounds like hypocrisy and a subversion of the truth on what is going on in Islam. |
Or maybe they really believed 9/11 was wrong - neither of us are mind-readers.
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Logical Realist
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California
Jan 2002
time: 21:18
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quote:
Or maybe they really believed 9/11 was wrong |
I'm pretty sure a lot of them did. But that doesn't mean that the action violated Islamic principles or that Islam is a religion of peace.
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20-03-2002 01:41
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