20-03-2002 17:59									#91
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quote: I keep wondering how someone that sistematically demonstrates he doesn't give a damn about reading anything slightly religious starts saying that the Islamic religion is not a religion of peace or that murder is not against the Islamic religion. I mean, if you don't know exactly what you are talking about, you should take for granted the opinion of speciallists. Most of the Islamic leaders pubicly stated that the action in 9:11 was against Islamic principles, and, in fact, had no support on them.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Yes, the Koran has verses which prohibit "murder" (unlawful killing) and suicide. But it also has verses which declare that infidels deserve death by fire (and impalement on iron hooks etc). So, as with Christianity, it depends on which chapters you read.

quote: Also atheism is pretty much a new thing and already we see that it does not prevent the horrible things LR blaims on religion. So why do it?

No, atheism does not prevent such things, nor does it cause them. However, atheism alone cannot be used to motivate people to commit atrocities, whereas religion can. Throughout history, many people have killed other people purely because they were told that it was their holy duty to do so. The Crusades were regarded as a holy pilgrimage.

And, as atheism is mentioned in the Bible, it isn't "new".

	20-03-2002 18:07									#92
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Jack: aethism is fairly new in western history. An aethistic world view isn't really plausible before the discovery of natural law. Medieval peoples believed that the daily workings of the world were governed by a proactive god. Modern aethism didn't really come into play until about the time of the scientific revolution. People just couldn't concieve a world without a god making it work.

	20-03-2002 19:51									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist I'd like to see evidence of that seeing as the Catholics were scared of the Nazis.

They had reason to be considering that the Nazis considering the fact that the Nazis rounded up Catholic non-Aryans as well as Jews to be sent to the camps. But even that did not totally silence the Church during WWII.

For an example Catholic condemnation of Nazi doctrines see the encyclical "Mit brennender Sorge."

For evidence of his actions to save the Jews from the camps, see Pinchas E. Lapide's book Three Popes and the Jews.

Edit: I forgot to add that the fact that you say that Catholics were scared of the Nazis casts doubt on the assertion that they were coniving with them.

Edit2: I thought that I'd add this quote as it deals directly with the assertions being thrown around about the Church:

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly. - Albert Einstein

	20-03-2002 21:11									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? Yes, the Koran has verses which prohibit "murder" (unlawful killing) and suicide. But it also has verses which declare that infidels deserve death by fire (and impalement on iron hooks etc). So, as with Christianity, it depends on which chapters you read.

I'm affraid I'm not that versed in Islamism so as to argue with you.
On the other hand, could you please point me which chapters or even versicles of the New Testament clearly point out to things such as the Crusades, the Inquisition or even Witch Hunting?
It really is not a question of which chapters you read but how you read them. Never the less, I'll bet you will find it very hard to discouver any direct reference to things such as an Holy War or to the killing of those that didn't believed.

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless No, atheism does not prevent such things, nor does it cause them. However, atheism alone cannot be used to motivate people to commit atrocities, whereas religion can. Throughout history, many people have killed other people purely because they were told that it was their holy duty to do so. The Crusades were regarded as a holy pilgrimage.

Yeah, they thought it was their holy duty. That doesn't mean it was.
Nowadays some people kill other people simply because they "were ordered to do it" - that seems pretty a-religious to me.
And religion alone cannot motivate anyone to commit atrocities - especially if the same atrocities are deemed sinfull and said to condemn you, as it happens, at least in the Christian Religion (and I can only state for certain in what regards the religion I best know). Again, a bit of context will would help your hastened interpretations of historical events. Science didn't came to substitute religion, but to make human knowledge more complete.
Civilizational advances allowed us to perceive ancient practices as wrong and unjustifiable even under religious terms. The fact that, before such advances people couldn't preceive their mistake doesn't make the religion wrong, for the principles didn't change, just the way we look at them.

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless And, as atheism is mentioned in the Bible, it isn't "new".

As far as I know off there is no biblical reference to such a thing as atheism. Although there is plenty of reference to paganism, that is also a form of theism (however mild).

	22-03-2002 07:55									#95
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what to you make of this guys?

http://pages.prodigy.net/aesir/ttd.htm

	22-03-2002 08:00									#96
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin what to you make of this guys?

You're asking us to explain the rationale behind The Turner Dairies?!?! Should I ask you to explain Mein Kampf?

	22-03-2002 08:06									#97
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not explain..just...in light of the debate, how does the solidify or reshape your arguments......
especially in connection with the oklahoma bombings

(plus, what else you gotta do tonight??? gonna post..might as well make it worth everyone's while)

	22-03-2002 08:11									#98
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin not explain..just...in light of the debate, how does the solidify or reshape your arguments...... especially in connection with the oklahoma bombings

It's largely irrelevent. The Christian Identity Movement has as much relation to Christianity in general as che will tell you the Soviet Union had to the theoretical works of Karl Marx.

	22-03-2002 10:23									#99
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ok
come tell me
i have't studied this stuff

	22-03-2002 10:26									#100
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin ok come tell me

Tell you what?

	22-03-2002 10:30									#101
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quote: The Christian Identity Movement has as much relation to Christianity in general as che will tell you the Soviet Union had to the theoretical works of Karl Marx.

about this.
i'm trying to understand if Tim was an xian or not. thing is..he might have been..just not the kind that other xians' approve of....and also to know if he was acting out of religious fervor.

	22-03-2002 10:36									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns I'm affraid I'm not that versed in Islamism so as to argue with you. On the other hand, could you please point me which chapters or even versicles of the New Testament clearly point out to things such as the Crusades, the Inquisition or even Witch Hunting? It really is not a question of which chapters you read but how you read them. Never the less, I'll bet you will find it very hard to discouver any direct reference to things such as an Holy War or to the killing of those that didn't believed.

The Firstborns of Egypt come to mind.

	22-03-2002 10:41									#103
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quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin about this.

''Identity is a religion by sociopaths, for sociopaths. It turns their sickness into virtue.''

Here's a good run down of the history of the Christianity Movement: http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/usa-05.html
http://www.americanreligion.org/cultwtch/identity.html

The best objection to the the Christian Identity Movement is that which Michael Cardinal von Faulhaber raised in his opposition to the Nazis, "Let us not forget that we were saved not by [Aryan] blood but by the blood of Christ!"

	23-03-2002 11:08									#104
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quote: Much of what people do is done in the name of God. Irishmen blow each other up in his name. Arabs blow themselves up in his name. Imams and ayatollahs oppress women in his name. Celibate popes and priests mess up people's sex lives in his name. Jewish shohets cut live animals' throats in his name. The achievements of religion in past history - bloody crusades, torturing inquisitions, mass-murdering conquistadors, culture-destroying missionaries, legally enforced resistance to each new piece of scientific truth until the last possible moment - are even more impressive. And what has it all been in aid of? I believe it is becoming increasingly clear that the answer is absolutely nothing at all. There is no reason for believing that any sort of gods exist and quite good reason for believing that they do not exist and never have. It has all been a gigantic waste of time and a waste of life. It would be a joke of cosmic proportions if it weren't so tragic.

by Richard Dawkins

Also many of you people seem to think that by showing that there are other things besides religion that causes harm that religion cannot be held responsible for harm. That reasoning is flawed. Proving one things causes harm does not cancel out the other.

For example if I prove that people are racist without being a Nazi does that disprove the notion that Nazis promote racism? Not really. If I prove people will murder without having a gun around...does that prove that guns don't lead to murder? Not really.

Most objections here are based on a (red herring) confirmation bias, human behavior is rarely a matter of one motivation, as it is multifaceted. Meaning, in any given case, you will almost always find another motivation besides religion. Does pointing to this remove religion as an influence? No. It merely points to another influence besides religion which may be reinforced by religion or may reinforce a given religious belief. Also, possible motivations, can be easily made up, which is why motivations are usually taken at face value in history. (Otherwise it turns into a guessing game.)

As for the Christian Identity movement, religion clearly has something to do with it, either in an attempt to legitimize it or is somehow actually rooted in the beliefs, remains an open topic. (Remember that religion often times includes more than what is passed on in the texts, word of mouth beliefs also form a part of religion, like the curse of Ham belief.) The damage religion does here, is in confusing the issue, by hampering critical thinking in such a way that those beliefs can readily accepted and argued for.

I for one am not so deluded as to think Marxism had no influence over the Soviet Union. That's just too much speculation for me. Clearly at its worse, even some of the most hardcore Marxists admit that the ideas of Karl Marx still had influence in the USSR. (My friend in the Sparticus League simply states that Soviet gains outweigh Soviet atrocities and that capitalist atrocities like world war 1-which he sees as an imperialist war: are just as bad anyways.).

The Einstein quote was very strong. And it made me look more into what the Church did in World War 2. So far it seems like its true. Though many other courageous forces acted against the Nazis. And I have only read pro-Catholic sides to the story so far. But until other sources in the "nay" against the Pope standing against the Nazis, are found I think its fair to accept that claim. (Though Hitler was still pro-Catholic). And the anti-semitism of Europe is thought to have been originated and promoted by the Church in the first place.

	23-03-2002 11:10									#105
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I have to wonder, LR, if you've considered all the millions upon millions of acts of charity and kindness carried out in the name of religion.

	23-03-2002 11:36									#106
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quote: I have to wonder, LR, if you've considered all the millions upon millions of acts of charity and kindness carried out in the name of religion.

Yes, of course. Many good things were also done in the name of religion. The Catholic Chruch went against Jim Crow laws in the sixties, Quaker's helped sneak out slaves and such. But I think things like that do not make up for the general bigotry and slow down in technology brought about by religion. In any case, I think such values like charity can also be promoted by humanist groups and such. More ffectively, since such groups use cuting edge science and reasoning to do this with. Even if religion did some good things in the past, I don't think its needed anymore.

I also looked at those articles concerning the Christian Identity movement. None of them, even though they were by Christians, said religion was not a motivation. At most I guess, one can say that their "interpretation" is wrong. But how can that be done when interpretations are a matter of faith? I always like to try to remember that for every scripture that can be made better by interpretation, there is one that can be made worse. (Galileo showed this to the Catholic Church when one apologist declared that the moon was really a perfect sphere despite the observed craters due to invisible glass that might be there...filling up the craters. To this Galileo responded by saying that there might be glass mountains as well, making the moon even bumpier).

Now the Christian Identity movement does have some obvious flaws though. One concerning how all human's alive today come from an Cain and Abel split, when only one line would be left after the Noachian flood? (Another miracle perhaps?)

Like I said the real damage here comes from suspending critical thought and in that way leaving the field open for a bogus belief as a matter of faith.

	23-03-2002 11:51									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist As for the Christian Identity movement, religion clearly has something to do with it, either in an attempt to legitimize it or is somehow actually rooted in the beliefs, remains an open topic.

Of course. I never stated otherwise. How could they have made such a perversion of Christian doctrine without at least having something to do with religion? If you want I could even list other racist cults. It might even give me a little amusement but it wouldn't move the debate foward one iota because it would still fail to even deal with the assertion that either Religion or Christianity as a whole is a malevolent force. Since you granted something to me further down in your post, I will grant you something. The perversion of religious doctrine, of which the Identity Movement is an example, can be evil and do great harm.

quote: I for one am not so deluded as to think Marxism had no influence over the Soviet Union.

I'll let che or one of the other Apolyton Commies deal with this.

quote: (Though Hitler was still pro-Catholic).

Hitler was not a friend of the Catholic faith and neither was the man Christian. One need only look at Mein Kampf to establish that much. Here's an interesting article on the subject for you: Adolf Hitler - Christian, Atheist, or Neither?