20-03-2002 11:02									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm sorry, you're correct - I was referring to federal laws.

	20-03-2002 11:08									#62
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hitler may have gotten support from his Christian countrymen, but the Nazi theory could hardly be considered Christian. Hitler and most of the major party officials loathed Christianity and blamed it for what they saw as the sorry mess that Germany had become after WWI, What the Nazis worshipped was primarily bad science, the type foisted by social Darwinists in the late 19th century.

Even Buddhists are capable of going off on either conquering or killing sprees. The first political leader to adopt Buddhism as his official religion was a king named Asoka. His newly adopted Buddhists beliefs didn't stop him from conquering India. Pagans can get pretty nasty too. Consider the Romans, Atilla, Genghis Khan, Alexander and the list just goes on and on.

	20-03-2002 11:20									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: As to child molestation, let's not blame that on Christianity

i never said they were. in fact, don't most official xian sects consider them heretical since they are a doomsday cult?

i think this might help as to WHY they were raiding the compound:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...o/treasury.html

	20-03-2002 11:26									#64
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

LR, you seem to be completely oblivious to causal realtions. Most of the things you are talking about occured either because of derrangement, insanity, or a completely different set of values.

Hate to break it to you buddy, but crazy people can claim to be christians, but christianity doesn't make them crazy. their are crazy people on both sides of that fence...

	20-03-2002 11:28									#65
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i
agree
with
kaak

	20-03-2002 11:29									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin i agree with kaak

I didn't think that I'd ever see you post such a thing.

	20-03-2002 11:31									#67
	Got spare money?

dino: i look at things fairly. when i agree, i agree. I'm not going to say he's wrong over one thing just because i might disagree with other things he says. *shrugs* at the same time, LR hasn't really commented on his position. He's stuck this article out there and made extremely little comment on it (at least you can't complain about himbeing over-verbose )
i AM interested to see if he has a more in depth take on this

	20-03-2002 11:44									#68
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kaak Hate to break it to you buddy, but crazy people can claim to be christians, but christianity doesn't make them crazy.

That's debatable. Anyway, the problem with this is Christianity gives any crazy person with an agenda credibility, and it seemed like nobody from Christian authorities (e.g. the Roman Catholic Church) denounced these crazy people.

IIRC the RCC was found to be guilty conviving with Nazis.

	20-03-2002 11:49									#69
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger IIRC the RCC was found to be guilty conviving with Nazis.

I'd like to see evidence of this given the fact that the Catholic Church (Pope) condemned the Nazi party and saved 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps.

	20-03-2002 12:22									#70
	Full PM-box? Change here!

isn't that why he said crazy on both sides of the fence? yes, atheists (me included) might consider Xians off a bit because they do believe in an omniscient overlord of sorts,
but this can also be debatable. (wow..wouldn't it be neat if a good part of the world's population was crazy)...
i hate to say it..but then we'd need to DEFINE crazy/insane
or come up with some other interpretation for man's need for a god

	20-03-2002 12:43									#71
	Remove this text

that's a nice change DM, I particularly like how you put all those words on different lines so they couldn't necessairly be considered in the same sentence lol

	20-03-2002 12:45									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

change? i didn't change. i've always been that way:
when i agree with you i agree with you
when i don't...you know it!

i structured it for emphasis

	20-03-2002 12:47									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

hmmm...by change i meant that you actually agree with me as opposed to disagreeing. I wasn't suggesting that you yourself had changed

	20-03-2002 12:55									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

ok. cool

	20-03-2002 13:25									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Kaak: Hate to break it to you buddy, but crazy people can claim to be christians, but christianity doesn't make them crazy. their are crazy people on both sides of that fence...

Seems like there are a lot of people who just happen to become crazy and pursue religious agendas.

A bit too much for me to take that argument seriously. What about "untouchables" in India...not religion...just people being "crazy" for thousands of years.

quote: I'd like to see evidence of this given the fact that the Catholic Church (Pope) condemned the Nazi party and saved 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps.

I'd like to see evidence of that seeing as the Catholics were scared of the Nazis.

quote: Strangelove: Hitler may have gotten support from his Christian countrymen, but the Nazi theory could hardly be considered Christian. Hitler and most of the major party officials loathed Christianity and blamed it for what they saw as the sorry mess that Germany had become after WWI, What the Nazis worshipped was primarily bad science, the type foisted by social Darwinists in the late 19th century.

Hitler like many quacks was into both, the occult and Christianity. Some Nazi higher ups were like you said, Pagans, mainly Heinrich Himmlerr, but they were also considered kinda silly by a lot of Germans.

Hitler's only problem with Christianity was that it supposedly wasn't warlike enough for him(he much prefered the Japanese Shinto one).. But that didn't prevent him from making war. The idea of heaven can get men to die for a cause pretty easily. Hitler also saw Christianity as a German religion and hence the one he chose.

quote: Even Buddhists are capable of going off on either conquering or killing sprees. The first political leader to adopt Buddhism as his official religion was a king named Asoka. His newly adopted Buddhists beliefs didn't stop him from conquering India. Pagans can get pretty nasty too. Consider the Romans, Atilla, Genghis Khan, Alexander and the list just goes on and on.

I agree, but this in no way excuses Christianity or proves its effects aren't negative. (it only proves that other religious beliefs are negative as well.) And to that position I agree. Religions were made in militaristic societies and hence reflect the values of those people. The idea of matyrdom being one of them.

	20-03-2002 13:31									#76
	Remove this text

the point is, LR, that christianity has nothing to do with it. it might be a means of exploiting madness, but no more than hindus, muslims, atheists, or any other group you want to label. THERE IS NO CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP.

	20-03-2002 13:34									#77
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: THERE IS NO CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP.

See that begs the question. And assumes all ideologies are equal. They are not. Some can be questioned...others are based on faith. Some are derived from war cultures....others from scientists. To say they all "exploit the crazy" equally you must prove that they are all the same. They are not. Abrahamic religions in this context are a paticularly nasty breed.

Also what makes you think that ALL these people are crazy? The people who slammed into the world trade center could fly a plane and pulled off a very well coordinated attack. That takes sanity.

	20-03-2002 13:36									#78
	Suffering from ads?

quote: See that begs the question. And assumes all ideologies are equal.

it neither begs the question nor makes assumptions about ideologies. It says that it's irrelevent. which it is. you need to pay better attention in class.

	20-03-2002 13:36									#79
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist See that begs the question. And assumes all ideologies are equal. They are not. Some can be questioned...others are based on faith. Some are derived from war cultures....others from scientists. To say they all "exploit the crazy" equally you must prove that they are all the same. They are not. Abrahamic religions in this context area paticularly nasty breed.

ha ha ha ha

right, Christianity encourages questioning

Jon Miller

	20-03-2002 13:45									#80
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: right, Christianity encourages questioning

Name one passage in the Gospels in praise of intelligence then.

Actually Christian encourages faith. That's not compatable with a questioning mind.

	20-03-2002 13:49									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Actually Christian encourages faith. That's not compatable with a questioning mind.

most modern philosophers will tell you that the two are unrealated. Faith and reason fall into two distinct and seperate fields

	20-03-2002 13:49									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

what about psalms in reference to solomon?

	20-03-2002 14:02									#83
	Suffering from ads?

quote: most modern philosophers will tell you that the two are unrealated. Faith and reason fall into two distinct and seperate fields

Not really. And if the distinction is recognized it doesn't mean they are compatible when given in the same respect. If you believe something on faith, you don't question it.

BTW Psalms is OT. I asked for Gospels. But if you want to play that way we can compare all Bible quotes praising intellect and doubt and those praising blind faith. See who comes out ahead.

	20-03-2002 14:03									#84
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist Name one passage in the Gospels in praise of intelligence then. Actually Christian encourages faith. That's not compatable with a questioning mind.

yes it is

Jon Miller

	20-03-2002 14:07									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Regardless of whether Hitler himself was a Christian or not, he was certainly a theist, and many Nazis were Christian. Furthermore, there was a long tradition of Christian anti-Semitism in Germany: it was Martin Luther who wrote The Jews and their Lies. In fact, Christianity has always been the main source of anti-Semitism (Christians blaming Jews for the death of Jesus).

We atheists have Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. But not Hitler. Thanks for the offer, but you guys can keep him.

	20-03-2002 14:16									#86
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

*sigh*

quote: Not really. And if the distinction is recognized it doesn't mean they are compatible when given in the same respect. If you believe something on faith, you don't question it.

Read up on William of Ockham to start with...

being a christian does not exclude you from the realm of science.
The only support you could argue is once again a hardline strict interpretation of the bible which most christians just don't purport. Believing that there is a god and that i will go to heaven has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I believe in evolution.

	20-03-2002 15:11									#87
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hitler was about as religious as the Easter Bunny, and whatever he said was for political propaganda only.

Historical footnote:

The Easter Bunny, like the Easter Egg, is an ancient pagan symbol of fertility. The word "Easter" comes from the goddess Eostre, also known as Ishtar, the Babylonian goddess of love and fertility. The Spring fertility festival, still celebrated on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox, is the source of both the Jewish Passover and the Christian Easter.

So, if you're saying that Hitler was as religious as a Christian festival with strongly pagan overtones, we are in agreement.

	20-03-2002 16:19									#88
	Oh... the ignorance can make one so wrong Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Logical Realist I'm pretty sure a lot of them did. But that doesn't mean that the action violated Islamic principles or that Islam is a religion of peace.

I keep wondering how someone that sistematically demonstrates he doesn't give a damn about reading anything slightly religious starts saying that the Islamic religion is not a religion of peace or that murder is not against the Islamic religion.

I mean, if you don't know exactly what you are talking about, you should take for granted the opinion of speciallists. Most of the Islamic leaders pubicly stated that the action in 9:11 was against Islamic principles, and, in fact, had no support on them.

But surelly you, a strongly commited atheist, interpret their principles much better then them...

	20-03-2002 16:49									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Another hystorical note:
The Eastern Bunny has no connection to the Celebration of Christs Resurection nor with the Hebrew Liberation from Egipt. Therefore, the Eastern Bunny has not a shred of connection with the Christian Eastern.

However, the fact that some people think it is, shows much about the way one can claim to be Christian and do something according to Christian comandments and some people actually believe. What is pretty odd, since the Christian Law, aka, The Ten Comandments is pretty common knowledge, as far as I recall.

And in what concerns almost all off the examples presented by LR let me remind you of the need to contextualize.

Also atheism is pretty much a new thing and already we see that it does not prevent the horrible things LR blaims on religion. So why do it?

	20-03-2002 17:05									#90
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Darwin's Dangerous Disciple

funny

Dennett published a book called "Darwin's Dangerous Idea".

any connection?