03-04-2002 07:22									#1
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1906593.stm

Let's here it for those unbiased French, who condem the Jews at every turn, and say the US is out of hand.

Didn't take them long to fall into old patterns, now did it?

Our friends in Deutchland also are up to old tricks:

quote: Meanwhile, German police said they were investigating an assault on two young Orthodox Jews from New York in downtown Berlin on Sunday night for possible links to Israeli-Palestinian strife. The two 21-year-olds said they were asked whether they were Jewish by a group of seven or eight youths, and one of the Americans was attacked when he answered yes, police said. The victim, who was not identified by police, was beaten and kicked to the floor. He was treated in hospital for facial injuries.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20020402_1477.html

I had to dig for both stories, they are downplayed in the news, yet any anti-muslim attacks are front page news.

	03-04-2002 07:26									#2
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Er Chris, I think you'll find the United States is virtually alone in supporting Israel in the current conflict.

	03-04-2002 07:30									#3
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I know it, and I often wonder why, considering who blows up cafes full of teenagers forcing a military responce.

Considering Israel offered the Pals everything they wanted except Jerusalem, what could possibly be the reason for non support of the victims of Pal terror?

	03-04-2002 07:30									#4
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You beat me to it - I was going to post about the French story - the fourth attack in as many days, the 2nd in Strasbourg. ALso an attack in Belgium. I hadnt seen the German story.

To be fair to the French (And Belgians), it may well have been foreign Arabs who were did it. The Germans may have been "ossies". Nonetheless I am very concerned by the renewed acceptability of Jew hatred in Europe. This is the background to the European approach to the Middle East.


LOTM

	03-04-2002 07:32									#5
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Yes, and I see it here in the OT also.

If questioned, they will say something about the IRA, or accuse the USA of some plot or atrocity, without a shred of evidence being presented.

	03-04-2002 07:36									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Er Chris, I think you'll find the United States is virtually alone in supporting Israel in the current conflict.

Uh, Denmark, IIUC.

LOTM

	03-04-2002 07:39									#7
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In fact, according to Sharon, he got calls from a number of EU leaders over the weekend, wanting to know if Arafat had electricity, water, how many rooms he had to himself, ect.

Not one word of condolence or any condemnation of the latest round of Arafat directed terror bombings.

Shows were those "enlightened" leaders stand, now doesn't it?

	03-04-2002 07:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I know it, and I often wonder why, considering who blows up cafes full of teenagers forcing a military responce. Considering Israel offered the Pals everything they wanted except Jerusalem, what could possibly be the reason for non support of the victims of Pal terror?

Israel is fully to blame because of its illegal and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands. They are reaping what they sow.

The suicide bombers are a symptom of years and years of maltreatment, injustice and occupation. I think the suicide bombing are wrong but the Palestinians have been pushed to it by frustration at Israeli intransigence.

	03-04-2002 07:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Israel is fully to blame because of its illegal and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands. They are reaping what they sow.

Nice trolling attempt, but of course, it doesn't hold water.
What Pal lands might those be?
They ceded WB to Jordon, Jordon ceded it to Israel.
They ceded Gaza to Eygpt, Eygpt ceded it to Israel.
No Paly lands there.

quote: The suicide bombers are a symptom of years and years of maltreatment, injustice and occupation. I think the suicide bombing are wrong but the Palestinians have been pushed to it by frustration at Israeli intransigence.

ha ha, that is a good one!

Which one of our "experts" did you lift that from?

	03-04-2002 07:50									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Israel is fully to blame because of its illegal and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands. They are reaping what they sow. The suicide bombers are a symptom of years and years of maltreatment, injustice and occupation. I think the suicide bombing are wrong but the Palestinians have been pushed to it by frustration at Israeli intransigence.

The occupation would be over if Arafat had accepted Baraks offer. Israel, far from being intransigent has been willing to compromise. Rabin died for his willingness to compromise. Peres has pushed for compromise whenever possible. Whenever there is a dovish Israeli govt the terrorists attack until they have pushed the right back into power. The currrent intifada started in the midst of an Israeli election campaign. It didnt take a rocket scientist to know that it would lead to Sharons victory over Barak. The Palestinians WANT intransigent Israeli leaders, it relieves them of the need to compromise.

LOTM

	03-04-2002 07:53									#11
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quote: Nonetheless I am very concerned by the renewed acceptability of Jew hatred in Europe.

I would hardly call Jew hating 'acceptable' in Europe.

	03-04-2002 07:58									#12
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There will be no peace in the ME until Israel ends its occupation, comes to an accommodation over Jerusalem and removes its settlements from the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is in the wrong and to blame. There is no escaping it.

	03-04-2002 08:00									#13
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You know, I always go for that tactic when I'm arguing a point with someone. I grab a couple guys, strap bombs on them and send them into bars their families like to visit. You know, what it *always* works.

I just don't get how anyone can rationalize terrorist attacks of any kind in this day and age.

	03-04-2002 08:01									#14
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Have to ask:

What right do Pals have to land they never owned, and never worked?

	03-04-2002 08:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse There will be no peace in the ME until Israel ends its occupation, comes to an accommodation over Jerusalem and removes its settlements from the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is in the wrong and to blame. There is no escaping it.

Prior to 1967 arabs held Jerusalem, west bank, and gaza, and there were no settlements and yet there was no peace. Israel must be convinced that its concessions lead to peace before it makes more. There will be no peace while the spree of mass murder against Israelis continues.

LOTM

	03-04-2002 08:07									#16
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Notice how the usual Israel bashers have ignored this thread?

Speaks volumes, doesn't it.

	03-04-2002 08:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Have to ask: What right do Pals have to land they never owned, and never worked?

Your breathtaking ignorance doesn't surprise me - but anyway. Palestinians have legal title documents to land dating back to the Ottoman Empire and the British mandate. There are Palestinians who've been sitting in refugee camps in places like Lebanon since 1948 holding their title documents to land in Israel. They were forced out at the point of a bayonet. The Israelis Government doesn't recognise these title deeds and just gave the land to Jewish settlers. That's the level your "friend" is on.

	03-04-2002 08:11									#18
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I have to ask... if I was French, and had land in Louisiana when it was sold, would I still own the land?

	03-04-2002 08:13									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That's the level your "friend" is on.

Should we take a look at the level your "friend" is on?

	03-04-2002 08:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Your breathtaking ignorance doesn't surprise me - but anyway. Palestinians have legal title documents to land dating back to the Ottoman Empire and the British mandate. There are Palestinians who've been sitting in refugee camps in places like Lebanon since 1948 holding their title documents to land in Israel. They were forced out at the point of a bayonet. The Israelis Government doesn't recognise these title deeds and just gave the land to Jewish settlers. That's the level your "friend" is on.

For the most part houses abandoned by arabs who fled Israel in 1948 was given to Jewish refugees entering Israel, many (most?) of them coming from Arab countries, Yemen, Iraq, Morocco, Syria, Egypt. Do you consider them "settlers"
Post 1967 west bank settlements have been established on state lands, which were public property under Ottomans and British. BTW Palestinian refugees were NOT forced out at points of bayonets.

Thank you for the opportunity to clear up this confusion.

LOTM

	03-04-2002 08:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Your breathtaking ignorance doesn't surprise me - but anyway. Palestinians have legal title documents to land dating back to the Ottoman Empire and the British mandate. There are Palestinians who've been sitting in refugee camps in places like Lebanon since 1948 holding their title documents to land in Israel. They were forced out at the point of a bayonet. The Israelis Government doesn't recognise these title deeds and just gave the land to Jewish settlers. That's the level your "friend" is on.

Nice try, but the ignorence is on your part old boy.

The Ottomans didn't grant land titles (look it up, but I already know), and your commonwealth boys washed their hands of Palestine when they beat feet in 47, so couldn't issue anything but weapons to the Pals.

Your "forced out" friends, you neglect to mention, left voluntarily, under arab league promisses that the Jews would be driven into the sea in 48, and that they could then come and have it all.

You'll have to do better, old boy.

	03-04-2002 08:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark For the most part houses abandoned by arabs who fled Israel in 1948 was given to Jewish refugees entering Israel, many (most?) of them coming from Arab countries, Yemen, Iraq, Morocco, Syria, Egypt. Do you consider them "settlers" Post 1967 west bank settlements have been established on state lands, which were public property under Ottomans and British. BTW Palestinian refugees were NOT forced out at points of bayonets. Thank you for the opportunity to clear up this confusion. LOTM

No, I consider them thieves - the real owners have been living in refugee camps for decades - and Palestinians were forced out of towns now part of Israel at the point of a bayonet. This is especially true of refugees from 1948 who ended up in Lebanon.

	03-04-2002 08:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Your "forced out" friends, you neglect to mention, left voluntarily, under arab league promisses that the Jews would be driven into the sea in 48, and that they could then come and have it all.

In some cases that is true, in other cases it most definately is not.

	03-04-2002 08:23									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No, I consider them thieves

Without a shred of truth to your claim...

quote: - the real owners have been living in refugee camps for decades -

No, they have been building up their homes, and reclaiming a deseert...

quote: and Palestinians were forced out of towns now part of Israel at the point of a bayonet.

Ha ha, the old propaganda still lives..

quote: This is especially true of refugees from 1948 who ended up in Lebanon.

Let's talk about them.
They were expelled from a number of Muslim states over the years...
Why?

	03-04-2002 08:24									#25
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Hey Chris why don't you do some research before talking crap - I HAVE SEEN PALESTINIANS HOLDING THEIR TITLE DEEDS.

And here is an artcile which set out what happened in terms of depopulation.

http://www.palestinianrefugees.com/...lrights-eng.htm

	03-04-2002 08:29									#26
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So, does anyone know what happens to individual owners of land when their government sells, or otherwise loses the land?

	03-04-2002 08:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Hey Chris why don't you do some research before talking crap - I HAVE SEEN PALESTINIANS HOLDING THEIR TITLE DEEDS. And here is an artcile which set out what happened in terms of depopulation. http://www.palestinianrefugees.com/...lrights-eng.htm

They fled in the midst of war - the issue of compensation for specific properties can properly be addressed in a peace settlement - which will have to also deal with the claims of Jews who left behind property in arab states they fled. A peace settlement would be a good thing - but it cannot be achieved if the palestinian people commit themselves to mass murder.


LOTM

	03-04-2002 08:32									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Hey Chris why don't you do some research before talking crap - I HAVE SEEN PALESTINIANS HOLDING THEIR TITLE DEEDS.

I could wave a deed to the Sydny opera house, it doesn't make it leagal.

quote: And here is an artcile which set out what happened in terms of depopulation.

The ol 8 second google serach, eh?

	03-04-2002 08:34									#29
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quote: Israel is fully to blame because of its illegal and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands. They are reaping what they sow. The suicide bombers are a symptom of years and years of maltreatment, injustice and occupation. I think the suicide bombing are wrong but the Palestinians have been pushed to it by frustration at Israeli intransigence.

Hear, Hear Horsie!

I love hearing how Israel is totally innocent in this while they actively oppress Palestinian areas. Kind of like saying the Brits were innocent of the whole colonialism thing that don't know why those damned Boers were raising such a stink .

	03-04-2002 08:34									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone So, does anyone know what happens to individual owners of land when their government sells, or otherwise loses the land?

Its generally addressed in the sale agreement, or in the case of war, in the peace treat that ended the war. Thus IIUC the US recognized the claims of Mexicans living in the Southwest, and this was established in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo which ended the war. In the cases of Loyalist claims the US under the treaty of Ghent was not required to make compensation, IIRC.
A peace treaty between PA and Israel would deal with property claims. The problem is that this isnt about property claims - its about an attempt to force Israel to accept hundreds of thousands of residents who are dedicated to the destruction of the state.

LOTM