03-04-2002 10:02									#91
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's why Israeli soldiers lure Palestinian children out to throw stones?

I have no idea where you are getting this from, but I haven't heard it anywhere, and it certainly doesn't make very much sense. The Israelis take a lot of heat whenever they shoot rioters, and it's simply inconceivable that they would try to make their jobs harder by luring out children who they know they aren't supposed to hit.

	03-04-2002 10:03									#92
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, just saying that you saying that some death camp victim is accusing the UN of anti-Semitism doesn't make it so without evidence. Where is her evidence?

Might have something to do with constant censure votes against Israel, yet none on PA Authority.

	03-04-2002 10:03									#93
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Felch: We are saying it is hypocritical for Americans to condemn Palestinian suicide bombings in light of our history.

Does your interpretation of our recent history take away from the fact that it is wrong to attempt to kill people for the twin crimes of being a Jew and shopping for food?

	03-04-2002 10:04									#94
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Ethics is what makes me give grudging respect to guerrillas as opposed to terrorists.

I was explaining, not condoning. I personally think that the deliberate targetting of civilians is an evil that should be tried and punished. However, it is only a crime that the loser pays, because of course, winners do not commit war crimes.

In a better world, Sharon, and Clinton, and Bush, and Hussein, and Milosevic, and Kissinger, and the heads of Hamas, would all be locked away forever.

	03-04-2002 10:05									#95
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Felch: We are saying it is hypocritical for Americans to condemn Palestinian suicide bombings in light of our history.

But would you say that an overall condemnation of anybody who used the slaughter of innocent civilians is reasonable?

By the way, I'm an American, I believe you and Che are, would you say that we are responsible for Dresden or the Trail of Tears? Or would it be more reasonable to say that the political and military leaders who ordered those atrocities are responsible?

	03-04-2002 10:06									#96
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In a better world, Sharon, and Clinton, and Bush, and Hussein, and Milosevic, and Kissinger, and the heads of Hamas, would all be locked away forever.

Okay, that's all I was asking.

	03-04-2002 10:07									#97
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Might have something to do with constant censure votes against Israel, yet none on PA Authority.

Perhaps because one country is an occupier and the other is occupied. One country has all the power, the other has none. One country has consistently violated International law and its own committments to the UN. The other hasn't.

	03-04-2002 10:09									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Forgot to rate this thread....................there, that's better

	03-04-2002 10:09									#99
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Perhaps because one country is an occupier and the other is occupied. One country has all the power, the other has none. One country has consistently violated International law and its own committments to the UN. The other hasn't.

I'll pretend you didn't say that, especially the last two lines.

Sure you don't want to rethink that, or must we drag up every one Fatty's follies, and we can start with the arms shipments....

	03-04-2002 10:09									#100
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Does your interpretation of our recent history take away from the fact that it is wrong to attempt to kill people for the twin crimes of being a Jew and shopping for food?

Ask those that are being oppressed if it is wrong. IIRC, one of the Israelis here once posted if they were a Palestinian they'd probably sponser terrorism as well. When you are treated like dirt, it stops being wrong.

quote: In a better world, Sharon, and Clinton, and Bush, and Hussein, and Milosevic, and Kissinger, and the heads of Hamas, would all be locked away forever.

Which Bush?

quote: But would you say that an overall condemnation of anybody who used the slaughter of innocent civilians is reasonable?

Of course... and everyone that has done so is not right. But we have to see why those people think that it is right.

quote: By the way, I'm an American, I believe you and Che are, would you say that we are responsible for Dresden or the Trail of Tears? Or would it be more reasonable to say that the political and military leaders who ordered those atrocities are responsible?

Yep (and Republican as well, if you believe that ... though agreeing with a Communist might get me kicked out ). Yes, I think we, as a people, are responsible for Dresden, Trail of Tears, Hiroshima, and Nagaski, Sherman's March, My Lai, etc.... some of those things we support (atom bomb droppings) and some we don't.

I guess killing of civilians is ok to most people when it prevents more death otherwise.

	03-04-2002 10:10									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Anyway, this thread is about European anti-semitism, and fears that it will rise again. Need I remind you that France is the nation that gave us the infamous "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?

When the Loyalists abandoned their lands in the US it was generally considered that they were committing treason. I'm not sure how their lands were distributed, but the claims of the few who returned were generally not honored.

The quetion of the flight of the Palestinians is not a simple one. Mant did leave because they didn't want to be caught in the crossfire between Arab League forces and the Israelis; they expected their side to win. There are known instances where Palestinians were indeed forced to leave. The key issue now is that the Palestinians didn't like who the Israelis elected even though negotiations were going ahead and they renwed the war.

	03-04-2002 10:10									#102
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Felch X I have no idea where you are getting this from, but I haven't heard it anywhere, and it certainly doesn't make very much sense. The Israelis take a lot of heat whenever they shoot rioters, and it's simply inconceivable that they would try to make their jobs harder by luring out children who they know they aren't supposed to hit.

They don't take it in the US. While Chris claims that the US media is ignoring the attacks in Jewish temples and Jews in Europe, I've seen and heard far more news about that then about the executed Palestinian policemen or the dead priest. You cannot get reliable news about what Israel is doing in the American media, only about what the Palestinians have done. It paints an exceedingly one sided picture. There are a number of reasons why this is so, which I shan't go into, but it's not because of Jewish control of the media.

	03-04-2002 10:11									#103
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: originally posted by AH Israel is fully to blame because of its illegal and brutal occupation of Palestinian lands. They are reaping what they sow.

The occupation would have been over years ago if the Pals hadn't been so obsessed with terrorism. Israel isn't going to withdraw from those territories unless it gets some tangible benefit. Why should they?

quote: originally posted by AH There will be no peace in the ME until Israel ends its occupation, comes to an accommodation over Jerusalem and removes its settlements from the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is in the wrong and to blame. There is no escaping it.

There will be no peace in the ME until the PA have it beaten into their thick skulls that violence won't get them what they want. It denies them what they want, or rather what they should want i.e. peace with Israel and their land back, NOT genocide against the Israelis and taking of Israeli land. The Pals are the aggressors. The Israelis kill civilians yes, but they don't do it on purpose. The suicide bombers, on the other hand, deliberately target civlilians and virtually ignore Israeli military ones.

AH, IIRC correctly you live in Australia. Would you consider the Australian govt to be in the wrong if the Australian Aborigines formed terrorist groups and started using suicide bombers to commit mass murder against civlilans?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz In any war, you attack an enemy at his weak point. The IDF is far too strong to be combatted directly, so the only option left is to take the war to its supporters.

quote: That is ****ing biased. Fine then - if you approve that it is ok to attack an enemy at his weak point, I'll call up Sharon and tell him to cleanse palestinian civilians. It's their weak point. You say it's ok for palestinians to do, so it must be the same for IDF. You aren't biased aren't you?

Saying that in a war one must hit the enemy's weak point gives justification to just about anything. It justifies the committing of genocide, deliberate attacks on civlians, indisciminate use of nuclear weapons, chemical and biological warfare, and the impoverishment of nations. As Siro says, if you justify attacking civilians, lets cal, up the IDF and tell them to start mass murdering Palestinian civilians. No more civilians = no more terrorists. No more terrorists = no more problem.

Besides, the IDF are hardly any less vulnerable to suicide bombers than civilians. For one thing it's their job to fight them, so it's not like they're gonna try to escape.

Anyway, how can you justify DELIBERATE Palestinian attacks on civilians while at the same time condemning civilian deaths in IDF operations?

As I've said, the only way for the Pals to get what they deserve in the ME is to accept what they deserve and let the Israelis live in peace. You can't expect a nation with the military potential to squash the PA like a bug to meekly surrender under terrorist attacks, do you?

	03-04-2002 10:12									#104
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Similarly there are many Israelis who do not support Sharon's policies and there are many Palestinians who do not support terror tactics.

You're ignorant.

Sharon has 60% + approval rate, which is slightly lower than the 80% he was used to.

According to the latest polls, some 33% of the palestinians don't support terror.

So the two people are at war, my dear.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If you are talking about the Church of Naitivity, Pals went into the church to hide out, and Israeli forces broke down the doors, violating a Christian site.

No, I'm talking about Saint Maria's church in bethlehem.

quote: The ADL has been screaming anti-Semitism about the story about the arrest of the 120 Israeli spies. If you can't argue facts, confuse the issue by screaming anti-Semitism and racism.

I've read somewhere an article disproving this rumor of Israeli spies.

I tried to find it, but I can't.

quote: It's not an ethical judgement.

Sure it is. You made it an ethical judgement.

quote: If I target a building that I know has civilians in it, and they die

If the building is a legitimate target (ie factory, media, NOT school, hospital) then it's a legitmate target.

quote: If I destroy the water source for an entire nation, that is premeditation.

You're confusing yourself again.

premeditation means you meant to hit that.

Now, if I actually meant to hit the water source - yes, it's a war crime / terrorist act.

However, if I hit it on purpose, be the damage the same - it's not a terrorist act.

quote: If I blow up a pharmasuetical factory, knowing that without the medicines it produces, tens of thsousands will die, that is premeditation.

Again
premeditation means you knew it's pharmasuetical and meant to hit it.

You should judge by intent, not result.

AFAIK USA thought it was a chemical factory which is a legitmate target.

quote: And it is intended. The deaths from these targets were not incidental, they were the intended result.

It depends.

Factories and such are legitimate war targets, since they contribute directly to war efforts.

Also it depends on what you meant, not the result.

	03-04-2002 10:12									#105
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When you are treated like dirt, it stops being wrong.

Morals don't change when one's status in life changes, Imran.

	03-04-2002 10:12									#106
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They don't take it in the US. While Chris claims that the US media is ignoring the attacks in Jewish temples and Jews in Europe, I've seen and heard far more news about that then about the executed Palestinian policemen or the dead priest. You cannot get reliable news about what Israel is doing in the American media, only about what the Palestinians have done. It paints an exceedingly one sided picture. There are a number of reasons why this is so, which I shan't go into, but it's not because of Jewish control of the media.

Nice try che, but I was referring to western press ignoring anti-semitism in Europe, others turned it into another ME rehash.

	03-04-2002 10:12									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I'll pretend you didn't say that, especially the last two lines. Sure you don't want to rethink that, or must we drag up every one Fatty's follies, and we can start with the arms shipments....

Were the arms shipments illegal under International law? I'm afraid not, since a colonial people are legally allowed to engage in warfare to expell their occupiers.

Try again, Chris. I know you are capable of much better arguments than this. I know if you really try, you can shut me up for a few hours while I prepare a response.

	03-04-2002 10:13									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Nice try che, but I was referring to western press ignoring anti-semitism in Europe, others turned it into another ME rehash.

Actually, I think you did first.

	03-04-2002 10:17									#109
	Put an end to popups!

Too tired to look up all of Ringo's transgressions right now, but for the record, he agreed not to allow certain weapons, and was caught red handed.

Oh, it was Horse that started the rehash of ME, doing his best troll attempts, which were incredibly lame, but that's another story.

Night, and try not to kill each other in my absence.

	03-04-2002 10:18									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Morals don't change when one's status in life changes, Imran.

In the real world they do. Human psychology changes under oppression. There are actual physical changes in the brain of a person raised in a violent abusive system as opposed to one who is raised in a safe environment.

	03-04-2002 10:19									#111
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Night Chris - enjoyed shooting you down in flames (again).

Come back tommorrow for some more punishment.

	03-04-2002 10:19									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Oh, it was Horse that started the rehash of ME, doing his best troll attempts, which were incredibly lame, but that's another story.

D'oh, you're right.

	03-04-2002 10:21									#113
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the real world they do.

I don't agree with the notion of moral relativism, che. It leads to people reasonablly belieiving that Arafat, Hitler, and Saddam Hussein are genuine humanitarians.

	03-04-2002 10:22									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

[b]Only one planes was shot down by Yugoslavia (a stealth plane, ironcically enough). Only an handful of planes were shot down by the Iraqis. [/q]
That's their incompetance.

Surely you're not suggesting that planes are immoral and terrorist?

quote: As I understand it, you are invading their city. They are fighting back. Anyways, it was the Israelis who killed a Catholic priest and injured some nuns, not the Palestinians.

I never heard about it, and Dino said it never happenned, so I believe him.

We're invading their city, because we want to capture people who are brutally murdering Israeli civilians.
If there would be no murderers, we wouldn't invade their city.

And finally - in the case we hurt someone, we didn't target them which is all that matters.

Also, terrorists often dress up to protect themselves. They dressed up as women and fled (or suddenly attacked) in the last incursion. They did the same in Deir Yassin.

quote: I made no claim of morality.

Your post was full of morality, pretaining our actions are somehow lower or equal to the terrorists.

quote: That's why Israeli soldiers lure Palestinian children out to throw stones?

By offering them free candy if they come?

That reminds me when Arafat claimed that the Mossad puts naked Israeli female soldiers at road blocks, and then when all the males come and see, the naked Israeli draws a gun (where from? :eek and shoots them.

And reminds me of another thing which is really luring: that PFLP leader we took out using a heli last year, Yusuf something, planned to put explosives into teddybears and spread them near schools. A PFLP prisoner was kind enough to warn. It's not new, since the PFLP already once placed a bomb near a school gate, which luckaly exploded some 10 minutes before the day ended.

quote: hey don't take it in the US. While Chris claims that the US media is ignoring the attacks in Jewish temples and Jews in Europe, I've seen and heard far more news about that then about the executed Palestinian policemen or the dead priest.

I think that's because half of your "news" are made up and posted by radicals on indymedia or similar.

I've read there about mossad planning 9/11, and about Jews making underground crematoriums for arabs

quote: You cannot get reliable news about what Israel is doing in the American media, only about what the Palestinians have done.

I live here, and I get credible media about what the Palestinains have done, and let me tell you brother, you hear about 20% of the attacks.

quote: It paints an exceedingly one sided picture. There are a number of reasons why this is so, which I shan't go into, but it's not because of Jewish control of the media.

No doubt, it's because of Jewish lobbying

	03-04-2002 10:29									#115
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Ask those that are being oppressed if it is wrong. IIRC, one of the Israelis here once posted if they were a Palestinian they'd probably sponser terrorism as well. When you are treated like dirt, it stops being wrong.

I think you perhaps mean me, and then you misread.
I told you I'd be pissed.

But never matter how much I am angry, never will I support the killing of innocent civilians.

quote: Night Chris - enjoyed shooting you down in flames (again). Come back tommorrow for some more punishment.

He thinks he won!

Quick, don't let him out of the room with the padded walls!
Make sure he has a padded keyboard as well, so we could amuse ourselves by raeding his posts

quote: In the real world they do. Human psychology changes under oppression. There are actual physical changes in the brain of a person raised in a violent abusive system as opposed to one who is raised in a safe environment.

Fine.
Then it's OK for me to go and murder scores of innocent palestinains. Hey, I'm angry! They almost killed my math teacher and killed her daughter.
...
NOT.

You are biased.

Moral relativism is always biased because then you allow your bias to tell you what's ok.

quote: Were the arms shipments illegal under International law? I'm afraid not, since a colonial people are legally allowed to engage in warfare to expell their occupiers.

Arafat is bound by the Oslo Agreement.
If he can break it - no reason for us to keep it.

And to remind you the thing was ordered during camp david - before the intifada.

	03-04-2002 10:31									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Felch X I have no idea where you are getting this from, but I haven't heard it anywhere, and it certainly doesn't make very much sense. The Israelis take a lot of heat whenever they shoot rioters, and it's simply inconceivable that they would try to make their jobs harder by luring out children who they know they aren't supposed to hit.

Shh... don't disturb his propoganda surge

	03-04-2002 10:31									#117
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't agree with the notion of moral relativism, che. It leads to people reasonablly belieiving that Arafat, Hitler, and Saddam Hussein are genuine humanitarians.

None of the three are moral equivalents. Htiler murdered out of hatred and to help his backers make money. Hussein murdered a disloyal border area during a vicious war. Afarat murdered in trying to end the occupation of his homeland. The first two held positions of power, Arafat does not.

Morals are relative, or do you believe George Washington was a terrorist? Morals are made by people. They are not objective, they have no permenence. That's why I can say my morals are superior.

	03-04-2002 10:32									#118
	Put an end to popups!

No one posts???

I win

	03-04-2002 10:36									#119
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Afarat murdered in trying to end the occupation of his homeland.

One might ask how the death of women and children, who don't happne to be IDF officers, furthers his goals.

quote: Morals are relative,

I don't really want to get into a debate on the subject. I'll just leave you with this essay that quite clearly lays out the reasons I reject moral relativism: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~owl/objectivism.html

	03-04-2002 10:36									#120
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara None of the three are moral equivalents. Htiler murdered out of hatred and to help his backers make money. Hussein murdered a disloyal border area during a vicious war. Afarat murdered in trying to end the occupation of his homeland. The first two held positions of power, Arafat does not.

You think Arafat does not.

Israeli intelligence proves different story.

I think Israeli intelligence has credence over... you.

Furthermore, I thought Arafat promised in 1993 to cease using terror. If that is no longer abiding, our capturing of him is justified

And another point - according to your moral relativism - is a criminal free to shoot at cops while trying to avoid arrest? After all he is not in the position of power

quote: Morals are relative, or do you believe George Washington was a terrorist? Morals are made by people. They are not objective, they have no permenence. That's why I can say my morals are superior.

Sure

Murdering jews on purpose is always superiour