17-12-2002 00:14									#361
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Don't bother Math, PBEM ranking is dead.

	17-12-2002 04:08									#362
	Support Apolyton

oh. too bad

	17-12-2002 11:18									#363
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I thought so too Math If you are interested start it up again. Make sure you have a high tollerance for B>S> it took only a few people to bring the house down here.

You have it some what right, 1st place had a maximum it could gain and that depended on the strength of the other players. The same for the rest of the players.
This was the new system which people like Kalji hated and are quick obviously to keep this ranking system and new players out of just ingore them. We also had the old system which saw one person in one game lead the top place for ever.

The new system promoted more games but did not mean the more games you played you were asured a top spot based on volume. You had to be winning all you games to do that. At that point if you were winning all your games you deserved top spot.

In the new system Gav was talking about you wagered 10% of your points each 9th turn. Why 9? several people decided it that way. Obviously the person with the most points wagered the most in the pot the bottom ranked wagered the least. If the bottom players beat the top player well obviously they gained way more they they wagered. If not they lost little by way of points mind you the top player gained little by way of points if they continue to win.

In this new system even a third placed player could pick up a few points, in the old system they just continued to lose points. Several of us saw that as a problem so new rules upon new rules were made to balance the old system. That just became a problem and an imbalanced system continued.
The old system was soley based on your skill, it did not take account of the game CTP and or it's uniqueness, alliences etc.

The new system needed very little by way of rules to make it fair and work, thus the push for change. It did account for CTP uniqueness and the fact that most people play several games.

The only arguement to the new system was that it gave an edge to the player playing the most games...In that respect it was no different to the old system except in the new system one person could not play one game and win every 9th turn and remain in top spot over all for ever as the old system was.

No way you had to be an active player to have a good ranking and of course winning. The old system you took massive hits on your points for losing to a weaker player. In the new system the points were better distributed so minor hits were minor. Major hits i.e. losing to weaker players, all of them in the game and yup you took a massive points hit. But losing to just one weaker player still meant you could break even or lose some or even gain depending on the strength of the other players.

There are several other players wanting to be rated in this system, if you are interested post your interest in the topped thread of the same name. In the new year we that are interested will be reviving this ranking.
The "I don't like it whine whine" players can take a hike.

So do not let Kalji cause you dismay he is one of the "lets kill this thing because I do not like it players"
Join the rest of us that are going to revive this thing.

Seems a few wanted it done thier way or else....Petty politics I know but you will soon find out, mind you it seems you have already, few control what goes on here and the rest follow like blind sheep...At least they think they do

Email me if you have more questions and of course input is good. I think you will find the players wanting this ranking system are flexable.

Good Luck!

Last edited by blackice on 17-12-2002 at 11:51

	20-12-2002 17:40									#364
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

WOW !
sorry that it took me so long to respond blackice, but when i initially saw you loooong posting i made a link on it and decided to read it completely later on, which was actually just now.

i like the idea of reviving the PBEM rantings...er.. rankings

i will gladly try to find a mathematical system that balances the rankings.
maybe i will even be able to keep track of the rankings and post them regularly, but i cant promise anything, especially since i know that i rarely finish things...

if anyone who is interested could describe as short and precise as possible what characteristics they would prefer about a new system, it would help a lot.

for my part, i can now think of these requirements:


hmm ?
oh...


- winning should put you higher on the rankings, winning often (NOT long !) should put you the higher.

- winning LONG doesnt matter, so dont repeatedly count the same game

- unless of course the respective old effect of the last rating of that game is redone when the new result comes in.

- newer players should all start with the same score, not necessarily at the bottom of the rankings.

- players that are inactive for a long time should more or less slowly move done in the rankings again, and/or be taken out at some point (sorry Lung )

- when they reenter, well dunno, probably at the point they left (=rating, not ranking)

- oh and the way to calculate the rankings should still remain quite easy, so as most quick to implement...

i stick with my upper suggestion so far:
take a specific percentage of the points from the score when the game starts and give it right back, at each new rating day retake the points previously assigned to that game and regive the new points assigned to that game.
this way the total points anted in games MIGHT (rarely) even exceed 100% of the total score you have without causing problems.

so much, gotta have lunch now

c u

	21-12-2002 09:47									#365
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

So far that is what was going on...

	21-12-2002 19:38									#366
	Full PM-box? Change here!

no if i understood this right the longer the game went the more points u gained. in my version u get the points solely for your current position in the game not all the past ones too...

	21-12-2002 19:40									#367
	Tired of ads?

So you only rank the game once?

Or is it you wager 10% once at the beinging and them you use that amount the entire game?

Maybe do the long version to spell this out, and maybe we should put this in the "topped" ranking thread?

	21-12-2002 19:51									#368
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by blackice So you only rank the game once? Or is it you wager 10% once at the beinging and them you use that amount the entire game?

both is correct, though the second statement is more precise. thats exaxtly what i meant.

quote: Maybe do the long version to spell this out, and maybe we should put this in the "topped" ranking thread?

ok, when i do the long version i will use that thread...

	21-12-2002 23:04									#369
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician no if i understood this right the longer the game went the more points u gained. in my version u get the points solely for your current position in the game not all the past ones too...

That is not a bad idea at all.

But I will still not report a single game before EVERY ranked player is ranked in EVERY game he/she is in.

Ok - I will admit one opening in my crusade - a player might be allowed to choose one game of ..... say every five games he/she is in, that should not be rated.

In my situation, I could choose 3 or 4 of games, where my position is really bad - but I could not "dismiss" all my failures, bad starts, bad land, bad neighbours, bad luck etc. etc.

And the Judge is bribed, the food too old and the ale without alcohol - I know

All bad excuses

	21-12-2002 23:09									#370
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by TheBirdMan That is not a bad idea at all. But I will still not report a single game before EVERY ranked player is ranked in EVERY game he/she is in.

didnt plan anything else.

until your post i havent even thought of the possibility someone could propose something else...

sure every game should be rated. else i wont do the maths

	22-12-2002 06:16									#371
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I understand Birdy, I really do but surely if the luck of the draw has a player with good land everytime and a player has bad land every game is that really a true meassure of thier skill or the land imbalance? While we all understand land is the single most important fact in CTP, skill is next combining the two in a consise, even and fair way would be a definate factor in forcing people to play ranked in every game.

And example is you land on swamp as far as your eyes can see and I on lush green fields with forest, rivers and mountains. That is not an excuse it is a death sentance for you. Unless of course you think you have a chance playing me under those conditions. If so lets set one up and test that theory.

I would not say you were using excuses for losing I would see I have a total advantage in the game. Online that would be a restart, in PBEM it is a loss. It is also a damn good reason to leave the game and let the AI lose it. Know what I mean?

Another idea I had for this would be to average every game for points ie: take all the scores from every game they are in and find the average score to add to the months totals in the rankings. This would in effect balance bad starts from good ones.

The problem in the past with being ranked in a game with bad land and no chance to win is obvious people quit games. The idea is not to have that happen, penalize them all you want. Eventually people simply do not want to be ranked at all. That said they leave here and or start single player games as we have seen.

The obvious problem is the time to do it all, mind you we have at least 5 people so far willing to apply time to the rankings thead. Obviously again a program to do the math would be ideal but to date no one has come up with one.

Math you have a good idea it would require a data base to remember the points wagered. Currently it is done on the fly with the current ranking.

It think we should get this conversation going in the main "topped" thread for more input?

Most of us would like this up and running in the new year revamped and as fair to new players, old vets, land and games played do we ask too much?

Email me math and I can give you more detail as to how this system worked with examples and rules.

Cheers

Last edited by blackice on 22-12-2002 at 06:24

	22-12-2002 06:24									#372
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i hope i will find time and inspiration to deal with this over christmas.

were you talking about
this thread ?

	22-12-2002 06:30									#373
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes all the players posting in there want to be ranked and have great ideas and input.

Me too math me too mind you the cheer and beer will as always impair my better judgement

Email me with the words "New System" in the subject line. I will start an email chain with some of the other key players in this so we are all on the same page ok?

Cheers

You playing online yet?

	22-12-2002 06:37									#374
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by blackice Yes all the players posting in there want to be ranked and have great ideas and input. Me too math me too mind you the cheer and beer will as always impair my better judgement Email me with the words "New System" in the subject line. I will start an email chain with some of the other key players in this so we are all on the same page ok? Cheers You playing online yet?

Just a short byline, awhile ago, year or more,I was getting dropped kicked online, figured everyone was cheating..well..not EVERYONE, but when I was 10 times behind in PG..I figured something was up

Well, you,Ivat and several others showed me what to do, from Mines in Mountains to getting water to cities out in woods to SETTLER SPRAWL to getting gold up and running ASAP. I have been seeing lots of new meat..er..uh..i mean Newbies and well, I get kinda guilty feeling wehn I am in Modern and have 15-18 tech on them, see no scouts for ruins going on..

Thanks, and now back to your regular topic, which, BTW, i am not involved in..yet....

Happy Holidays!! Pete!

Troll

	22-12-2002 07:15									#375
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You too Troll best wishes to you and yours all all those you have helped in and out of this game zone.

I for one would like to say of all the game sites this one is the most open concept and helpful overall. Still has petty politics but heh thats life in the food chain.

Trust and the desire to see fair play, even, competitive gaming and cheats and cheaters outlawed was the driving force. As with comparison to unreal and several other online games we still have a ways to go.
But soon ( I hope, heh very soon) we too will enter the modern age with online, PBEM gaming and the anti-cheat bots that go with it.

Keep up the good work.

Hey do not be embarassed just show them the legal tricks of the trade. Seems to me it is the only enjoyable way to go...

Up for a game online?

Cheers

	22-12-2002 07:48									#376
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by blackice You too Troll best wishes to you and yours all all those you have helped in and out of this game zone. I for one would like to say of all the game sites this one is the most open concept and helpful overall. Still has petty politics but heh thats life in the food chain. Trust and the desire to see fair play, even, competitive gaming and cheats and cheaters outlawed was the driving force. As with comparison to unreal and several other online games we still have a ways to go. But soon ( I hope, heh very soon) we too will enter the modern age with online, PBEM gaming and the anti-cheat bots that go with it. Keep up the good work. Hey do not be embarassed just show them the legal tricks of the trade. Seems to me it is the only enjoyable way to go... Up for a game online? Cheers

Yeah, actually, sometime we can, and you can add more "Training"

Troll

	22-12-2002 20:22									#377
	Got spare money?

Heh we'll see

	11-04-2003 19:57									#378
	Got spare money?

How can I get that rating thingie?

	11-04-2003 20:00									#379
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You've got it. You're on the bottom of the PBEM Challenge Ladder, on the first post of the thread of the same name (topped in this forum).

Now you've just got to win games to climb. One way to do that is to play your turns. Hint hint.

	11-04-2003 23:13									#380
	Increase Your PM Length

Right ricketyclik... Don't confuse the PBEM Challenge Ladder with the PBEM Rankings. The PBEM Rankings haven't been updated for a long time (and I think are dead). Use the PBEM Challenge Ladder thread to secure your legitimate position on the LADDER!

	13-04-2003 19:13									#381
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks for showing interest Pave. We are still recruiting for this ranking your name has been added to the list.

Dispite your efforts Quinn this ranking is very much alive.

	13-04-2003 22:48									#382
	Tired of ads?

Blackie...

You are confusing me.

What ladder are you refering to?

	14-04-2003 07:27									#383
	Got spare money?

Ice, I said the rankings haven't been updated in awhile, which is true, and I thought they were dead because of the lack of updates. Have they been updated somewhere else?

	14-04-2003 09:09									#384
	Full PM-box? Change here!

For this system, when somebody gets into a bad position, and played the whole game, losing on every *9. Would they lose more then 10% of there score by the end of the game?