28-07-2002 12:07									#1
	PBEM Rankings July 28th 2002 Got spare money?

Update on way

Last edited by blackice on 23-10-2002 at 11:53

	28-07-2002 12:30									#2
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Could I persuade you to make a short list, showing which games AND turn you have included? If possible, back to the days, where Gav and you took over.

I think (no, I know) I have at least 1 game and 2 turns to report.

	28-07-2002 12:49									#3
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:37

	28-07-2002 15:28									#4
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Thread title edited. Blackice, I'm looking forward to the Pros and Cons thread for me to view when I return.

	28-07-2002 16:05									#5
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Please take this post as positive as my only intention here is to improve.
I'm not supporter of current system, but anyway I see room for slight improvement. Namely, point distribution is let say al teast rough. I take myself freedom to try with smother distribution based on log and rounded on four decimal places (for real calculations more places are possible). Blackice could you calculate table on following numbers? I can send you a spreadsheet if needed.

77.9755 22.0245
62.5349 27.7933 9.6718
51.9289 28.5521 13.8842 5.6347
44.3139 27.5811 15.9530 8.3317 3.8203
38.6124 26.0674 16.7622 10.1116 5.6033 2.8431
34.1944 24.4497 16.8864 11.1655 6.9819 4.0701 2.2520
30.6750 22.8914 16.6455 11.7275 7.9455 5.1269 3.1239 1.8643

	28-07-2002 21:13									#6
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Kralj np all input is good input!

Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:38

	28-07-2002 21:41									#7
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:38

	28-07-2002 22:26									#8
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Yes, my numbers are percentages.

Whole idea is basic system is unevenly distributed as it is "handpicked". If you draw the lines you'll see what I mean.
I put it in evenly distributed mathematical form based on log.
Another solution is of course linear distribution, or any other calculated distribution.

I still don't like system, because I prefer one based on skill and nothin else.

Anyway here is an example of linear distribution.

66.667 33.333
50.000 33.333 16.667
40.000 30.000 20.000 10.000
33.333 26.667 20.000 13.333 6.667
28.571 23.810 19.048 14.286 9.524 4.762
25.000 21.429 17.857 14.286 10.714 7.143 3.571
22.222 19.444 16.667 13.889 11.111 8.333 5.556 2.778

	28-07-2002 22:38									#9
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:39

	28-07-2002 23:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by blackice I hate to say it again CTP is not solely based on skill and nothing else.

Please just don't say it again. Please.

quote: Having a system based on skill alone simply does not cover all the bases in CTP.

But we want to measure skill only, don't we. You can blame luck in one game some time, but not in all games. It will equalise sooner or later. It's skill it matter, or we don't need rankings at all.

quote: You also have to deal with the problems I pointed out above. For an average skill level person playing in a game with very skilled players. It can be very discouraging to be in last all the time and getting whacked in the rankings. Does not sound like fun nor would I blame them for leaving the game.

Absolutely not true at all! Probability system do NOT expect lower ranked player to beat higher one. Consequently will NOT whacked his rankings for being last. Just the opposite, even being last he'll lose marginal points, but will be rewarded greatly if unexpected beat higher ranked player.

quote: So by taking more away from the loser and giving it to the winner more imbalance is created and more problems down the pike.

You described your system here, not probability one.

quote: Do you see what I am saying?

I see it all the time. And I see your perception is totally mist. But you can probably say the same for me.

	28-07-2002 23:37									#11
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:39

	29-07-2002 00:10									#12
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quote: The system simply does not work for many reasons. This system is based on the winner not how much the loser losses.

Are you sure you understand it? What you are talking is simply not true. The system is not based on the winner. It is based on probability to win. Between equally ranked players probability to win is 0.5 (50%) and probability for higher ranked player beat lower go towards 1 (100%) depending on difference. If higher ranked player actually beat lower one his gain and other lose will be minimal but if lower one beats higher one gain and lose will be huge as probability for such event is very small. It's basically same probability as bets in horse racing, insurance etc. Probability doesn't lie! It is fair and unbiased description. That's the reason system will work perfectly in every of such situations.

quote: Enough said.

	29-07-2002 00:11									#13
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Pete, plese don't forget to have the thread with pros and cons for all the systems up, so that I can take a look after return.

	29-07-2002 00:22									#14
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:40

	29-07-2002 12:04									#15
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Well, here i am, lying on a banana chair sipping a Long Island Iced Tea reading about how i am still number 1 months into my retirement! Well, figuratively, at least

If you like, just so you guys can catch me, i can come out of retirement so my impending thrashing by Mobius in Swissy2 can reduce my score Of course, i would be entitled to claim my repeated bashings of Don in Lungmatch 1.2, although i'm sure i was told once that those scores would be detrimental to my overall score!

In any case, the Lungmatch semis are coming soon, so i would have more chances to score

You blokes are shithouse!

	29-07-2002 20:51									#16
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Lung, I challenge you to a one vs. one game of PBEM. Do you accept? Anyone sitting so far in the lead, (so now we have the "Lung" syndrome instead of the "Klair" syndrome), should have nothing to fear.
Click here for PBEM Challenge thread.

Last edited by quinns on 29-07-2002 at 21:05

	29-07-2002 21:46									#17
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:40

	29-07-2002 22:15									#18
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Ice, relax. Your system is in, and now that you are doing the rankings updates, yours is the best. Now I am a just spectator with my two bit opinions, just take them that way. I thought that all input was welcomed...

More opinions... I see that with 7 wins and 7 losses you have taken command of 3rd place. That doesn't seem fair.

	30-07-2002 00:10									#19
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Em, Pete... could you put me out of the ratings?

I still see 16 people that have retired from CtP even as long as a year ago
And of cource Don can enjoy two entrances as always

	30-07-2002 00:20									#20
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As instructed by Pete...

Let There Be Rock Turn 49

1. Hunter
2. [Keygen]
3. J Bytheway
4. TheBirdMan
5. Ricketyclick
6. Maddogmax

I am not sure who is rated and who isn't, especially the newer entries of the game, Ricketyclick and Maddogmax.

	30-07-2002 00:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen Em, Pete... could you put me out of the ratings? I still see 16 people that have retired from CtP even as long as a year ago And of cource Don can enjoy two entrances as always

Ummm... and me too. Please remove me from these ratings. Thanks.

	30-07-2002 06:04									#22
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:41

	30-07-2002 07:24									#23
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Anything that you disagree with is misleading according to you. And so sorry, which parts are updated and which are not? Quite the reliable system you have there. LMAO! Thanks for removing me from your ratings Ice. The pleasure is all mine!

	30-07-2002 07:33									#24
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.

Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:41

	30-07-2002 07:42									#25
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Let's stop this senseless bickering Ice. I am sorry. Good luck with the PBEM ratings. You have a good workable system and I wish you well with it. The fact that you have volunteered to do all of the work says alot. I mean it.

	30-07-2002 07:44									#26
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Thanks quinn I agree.

Do not take this wrong but why not work the bugs out of the old rankings and submit it for voting?

	30-07-2002 07:52									#27
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Well, Ice. Thanks. But it's a lot of work to rehash the old system and I am losing interest in the discussion of ratings anyway. I'm beginning to like the idea of just a simple ladder better in CTP PBEM Challenge! I think that your system seems pretty well received here for more than two player games anyway. Go with it! Good luck.

	30-07-2002 08:02									#28
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To bad... about the rankings I mean.

BTW It's not my system

	30-07-2002 11:26									#29
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quote: Originally posted by blackice No anything incorrect and misleading your ranking system based in ELO allowed for Klair type situations this one does not. That was a misleading statement and I corrected you.

Jeah, Klair type situations.
A Girl won 44 times without loss against toughest man players and was still leading. That's outrageous! And is misleading.
Now somebody with 7/7 score is ahead of her!? And is corrected.

	30-07-2002 20:14									#30
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Last edited by blackice on 03-08-2002 at 03:42