16-07-2002 19:09									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Damn, while I type one post you already got 3 in place .

	16-07-2002 19:12									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Pete, you should also see that we do somehow have many and many people who like the system as it is. And I believe that it is, add to it my rules, pretty fair. If you do not, it's the right thing to do - quitting. I understand your steam engine needs the smoke out.

I know people like the system right now this is why I do not understand the need to change it or restart it.
I think this is getting a bit silly my steam engine?
That is the way it is now if you do not like it quit? This used to be a place of debate I see that has come to a full stop?

quote: Steve, I guess I will be getting enough offense now after taking over .

Again why do people feel the need to make it personal that is childish to me. This debate, all but over with that last comment is about a system not a person(s) I wish people would stop getting offensive on me because I question and try to improve things or just give ideas amazing...I question a system a get personal attacks who is offensive here hummm.

	16-07-2002 19:15									#183
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No way... I'm welcoming suggestions, and in this case, I just mentioned restarting it because that's what I was offered.

Also, I agree with you that no major changes should be done. I only plan on a few minor ones, affecting substitues, delayed players. However, if the decision passes, I'd love to add what BirdMan said - in a rated game, everyone gets rated.

quote: Again why do people feel the need to make it personal that is childish to me. This debate, all but over with that last comment is about a system not a person(s) amazing...

Come on... you should see that your original post did sound like offense to Steve, this is why it all broke out.

	16-07-2002 19:21									#184
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I can not delete the post for some reason it will not let me?

I commented on a system not Steve it is an thing Steve is a person and I made no referance to him at all.

I am up to three finger typing now

Ok I still see no need to wipe out the hard work of some long time players i vote let their names stand as with the rankings.

I hope you see the merits in what I have said. Who is going to stick around to lose every game they have with bad land. I have yet to start a game with great land in what 28 games. Some people just want to play they do not want to be ranked why exclude them from joining here?

	16-07-2002 19:25									#185
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quote: Some people just want to play they do not want to be ranked why exclude them from joining here?

That is the drawback, which I see, but otherwise I'd love the rule. Thanks for your vote on wiping the ratings, more votes is what I need .

Also, why can't you remove the quotes from your post? What does it say? I can do it for you if you wish...

	16-07-2002 19:31									#186
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes you will have too It says I am not logged on and or have the right too...

That is why we suggested the 9-19 turn rule not everyone whats to be ranked. But they do want to play and not everyone wants to play bad land knowing they are going to pay for it in the rankings. I know of no other game league that forces people to be ranked some just like to play and the more the marrier.

	16-07-2002 19:32									#187
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

OK, but then please respond to this: what if player plays 10 turns, sees he got bad land, and doesn't get rated in a game, how are we going to get more than 2-3 rated players in a game?

Will edit post...

	16-07-2002 19:32									#188
	Put an end to popups!

I still see no logical reason to restart the rankings nor has one been given?

I see no need to worry about this the game is rated with less people no biggy. I also see only one resolve to this make all games even land. We know that is tough and not very likely. So what is the big deal? The other way is to force people to take loses in games for the next what year? I see more people leaving that way than any other way I could come up with.

	16-07-2002 19:35									#189
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Not much... it was just a proposal.

	16-07-2002 19:38									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Not much... it was just a proposal.

Ok put to a vote the top ten players are outvoted by the rest combined. If I was in last place I would vote yes.
With this logic all players under 10 should vote yes. it only makes sense.

	16-07-2002 20:04									#191
	Increase Your PM Length

I guess so .

	16-07-2002 20:24									#192
	Increase the size of your Attachments

One more point maybe what of the people who do have lives outside this game? They have a new assignment that now requires more of their time or a new baby. Do we penalize them because they now have to drop a game or two? Seems the best course would be to allow changes as long as the game does not suffer. It is not hard to set up a seemless transfer of a game. For those who do not do it penalize them...Seems like a fair rule to me anyway.

	16-07-2002 20:27									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What's life outside games?

There's no penalty for abandoning game, there's one for delaying, and one for going unrated in a game where you're rated, and continuing to play there. Latter, of course, will be removed, if we force everyone to get rated in rated games, but you show nice reasons not to... as I say, I'd love it, but most probaby can't.

	16-07-2002 20:54									#194
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Ok then obviously one would not go unrated they would quit the game this is the problem today. The solution we should find is how to keep the games going. Penalizing for going in a ranted game to unrated just creates the problem of quiting the game all together something we should avoid at all cost's.

The 9-19th turn rule is good and encourages people to play the game rated or not. I mean what is the real hassle of going unrated? If two are rated the game continues to be if none it doesn't. If all players but the leader go unrated they should be awarded the win simple as that.

Or how about this if a player goes unrated all other players are awarded x points...

Or how about bonus points for staying in a game?

Looking for a postive rather than a negative here to encourage people to play rather than penalizing...

Last edited by blackice on 16-07-2002 at 21:02

	16-07-2002 20:58									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You really believe this could happen? Yes, we do need to secure ourselves against this, suggest. If we let player to select if he's rated after 10 turns, a few will be rated. If he must select it at turn 0, players will be taking losses due to bad starts. I feel confused a bit, but there got to be a nice way to do it .

	16-07-2002 21:30									#196
	Increase Your PM Length

One way to have things happen is to impliment a "moderator" rule. All games must have a moderator and all players here have to moderate a game. That way any rules are easier to enforce. The moderator could use a simple code system when posting the rankings to inform the rankings co-ordinator of what is what and who is who.

Most all games that die have no moderator. Keygen runs around revamping these games. This is a big job that if a moderator was involved would be easy.

The moderator would be responsible for keeping track of what is what and who is who. A moderator could assign the tasks to players in the game that way everyone has something to do and more importance to the effect of the overall game.

In the end I think this would make any rule implimentation far easier to do. I also believe we have overlooked the importance of moderator far too long.

Last edited by blackice on 17-07-2002 at 08:09

	16-07-2002 21:35									#197
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Come people quinn keygen all you old f*rts out there contribute newbies get on this one. Solver is right some of this sytem needs to be revamped ideas are the key....

	16-07-2002 21:53									#198
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You see, while I agree that most games should have a moderator, it's tough to inforce. All in all, while I'm in complete charge of the ratings, I can't *force* people to use moderators - I can just try to authority .

Also, it might be better to have the moderators, not the players report the scores. This is because the moderator stays the same during the game. And it's the moderator whom I'd like to inform here of delays caused by players, so that penalties are given. We had the rule in 2000, but it was practically never used, as we just didn't get to know if someone delays a game.

What if this even speeds the games up, overall.

	16-07-2002 22:01									#199
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

hey i'd love to help out but o'm an idiot with computers i am just a point and click user. also i work 12-16 hours a day most days and now that i have 10?games going i find i am online a lot longer keeping up on threads and turns would love to help moderate but dont have the time all the time

off to the severs now Ice

	17-07-2002 01:17									#200
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What about a head moderator that could handle moderator request's? That way moderators simply have to keep games going? Head moderator has a thread for posting only players needed info any other posts are removed. The recruitment center gets muddled with crap far too often.

Also I think it was keygen who said we should have and agreement you must agree to to play here. Why not include moderating. Unless someone has a good excuse we all moderate.

	17-07-2002 16:41									#201
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've not moderated a single game .

Need Keygen to post here, but his drive reformat seems to have gone long.

Maybe I'll also start enforcing stricter forum moderation politics, eh?

	17-07-2002 17:20									#202
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Mumbling...... a history thread for each game I moderate?

	17-07-2002 17:25									#203
	Support Apolyton

Huh, feel free .

	17-07-2002 17:42									#204
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Could you restrict the writeaccess to such a thread to the moderator (and admins of course) only?

	17-07-2002 17:46									#205
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, I can. However, I can't restrict it to author, mods and admins. If I do this, the author (unless any of mods) won't be able to edit posts, either.

	19-07-2002 07:44									#206
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Before I start counting my suggestions how we could make the ratings better I would suggest to start a new thread exclusively for rule discussion just like the old times when the ladder was intruduced for the first time.
The initial Quinns/Solver rules and the later Gavrushka/Blackice rules should be posted there before any suggestions are thrown in the table because they are currently hunging somewhere and will be difficult for the rest to find them and use them as reference.

I must also point out that I've greatly missed the amount of detailed information Quinns used to post on the first post of every new ratings thread he started and the fact that from the current listed rated players at list the 20 of them are no longer members of this community, some of them have left about a year ago or so and Don has double entry, one as Don and one as Max Webster.

I was the one that suggested to Solver to start over the ratings.
First it would refresh the interest to all, even the ones in the first ten.
Perhaps not for the first three but either way they can lead again if they deserve it.
Second in many rated games the results hadn't been posted for months, certainly not in the games I play and I wasn't the only rated player there. I am sure that the same must have happened to other games as well.
Third having changed the way the players are rated and perhaps change them again either back to the original or to something new - who knows - has gained or taken off points from several players that might have created imbalances.

In addition the current first 10 players could gain their place in the pantheon (perhaps in a new thread or web page) of the top ranked players of the old ladder.

Now, go and post a new thread and I shall follow with my suggestions that might not be great after all, just a bunch of bull

	19-07-2002 08:11									#207
	Inflate your Upload Space

To clear up one point the rankings were calculated from the point they stood. Any active players who were ranked... Were subject to the same change no omissions.
Therefore no errors that can be counted for. The lost members will slowly fade. This alone will be incentive so will the fact the rankings are moving again.

quote: I must also point out that I've greatly missed the amount of detailed information Quinns used to post on the first post of every new ratings thread he started

Yes that was great but it did not change the rankings...

	19-07-2002 08:26									#208
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by blackice To clear up one point the rankings were calculated from the point they stood.

Do you mean that you erased their previous ranking and started over again?

quote: Originally posted by blackice Yes that was great but it did not change the rankings...

Well, I hope I didn't sound like that but I pointed it out not as a suggestion that would affect the ratings rather than as a good reference

	19-07-2002 15:32									#209
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I missed the detailed information, too, must see if I can manage posting it .

I'm now waiting till I get along to post the rules as I see them... after which I want more votes on whether to restart, and go ahead .

	21-07-2002 19:55									#210
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by blackice To clear up one point the rankings were calculated from the point they stood. Any active players who were ranked... Were subject to the same change no omissions. Therefore no errors that can be counted for. The lost members will slowly fade. This alone will be incentive so will the fact the rankings are moving again. quote: I must also point out that I've greatly missed the amount of detailed information Quinns used to post on the first post of every new ratings thread he started Yes that was great but it did not change the rankings...

I must admit that the "Klair" factor really led to great skepticism of the old rating system. The way the ratings used to be calculated worked pretty good if a player was rated in two or more games. With Klair sitting at the top ALL the time by just playing ONE old game really made the system look bad. But it is what we agreed to in the beginning of the old system -- one game is all that you had to play. However, I really don't think the way the new PBEM/Internet ratings are calculated is very good either. The "wagering" system of calculating ratings was flawed when it was introduced in GameLeague, and it was flawed when it was introduced in the Apolyton ratings also (both in Internet and PBEM). Nothing personal Blackice, it is not your system I am criticizing, it is GameLeague's wagering system that I am referring to. Maybe a compromise would be in order.