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Iwas really hoping for some sort of PW system... this news is quite depressing IMHO. And "Road every Tile in city radius"! I certainly hope not... I hated the old civ2 eyesores, I hope roads are only for "connecting" your civ... not +1 trade.
FIRAXIS, PLEASE rethink this!
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:12
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They can improve it as much as they want to but I will NEVER EVER give the AI to decide on such issues.
------------------
Builder.
"Antisemites? They are just the descendants of monkeys and are jealous of the descendants of Adam and Eve"
"The length of a minute depends on which side of the toilet door you're on"
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Chronus
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TRACHMIR QUOTE: "I hope roads are only for "connecting" your civ... not +1 trade."
I fully disagree. That would reduce the purpose of roads to mere military purposes. This is highly unrealistic since roads have had a large influence on economies throughout history.
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Chronos,
Trade only increases from roads if they connect somewhere, not if they go round and round... besides I'm sure we can guess that smaller access roads are built the same time you build a farm or a mine, afterall the supplies to build these improvements have to be brought there in the first place. Roads should give a economy bonous when they connect to another city, thus opening up a trade route... not just because you built roads in every tile around your city... that's just UGLY.
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J.DeMobray
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Seattle, WA, USA
May 1999
time: 05:12
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I agree with Imran Siddiqui, this is very good news. I love the idea of a seperate Worker unit who actually handles the terraforming duties. I also don't mind the 2 pop cost settlers at all (even though I'm a big fan of victory by ICS).
I enjoy micromanagement.
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Criminey, its time to herd units (much like herding cats). And the workers take a pop off the city that builds them? Even the SMAC terraformers didn't do that! Does it really take a whole pop point to build a damn road? (Especially over a twenty-five year period at the beginning of a game). Activision may not be capable of writing an AI that works, but many of their ancillary improvements were vast improvements over civ2. This news has chilled some of my enthusiasm for the game. But I guess I'll just have to remove the silly pop loss from the rules. But as long as the AI can keep up all will be forgiven.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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For the automated settler/engineer units...
perhaps a text file (something like the rules.txt file) for the automated settings. Here you could set what the priority should be. What to build first and on what type of land. With a in game menu you could set special case stuff. Something like connect cities with roads/rail. Of course with a in game menu you could forget the text file and control the automated stuff as the game continues.
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I feel the need to respond to some of the objections to PW. Here it goes.
(1) Granted, Lancer, roads don't fall from the sky. But then again, does it matter if work crews are represented by units or a PW fund? After all, scientific discoveries and engineering blueprints do not fall from the sky, but I don't hear you clamouring for scientist units.
(2) Activision stole the whole damn game concept. Firaxis should not feel bad about borrowing one of activision's innovations. Besides, if CTPII had a worthy AI it owuld have been a damn fine game.
(3) High stakes?!? Had you payed attention when playing CTP1 or 2, Raingoon, you might have noticed the burdensome costs of developing squares. Believe me, you dreaded the AI pillaging fisheries, advanced mines, or hydroponic farms.
(4) The AI has real trouble pathfinding development-type units. Just watch SMAC terraformers. PW eliminated those problems. It would be a real shame to give up that "feeling of accomplishment" for something as minor as a challenging computer opponent. The same points were made during an earlier discussion about the pathfinding for settler-type units. Unburden the AI.
(5) I hate moving tons of developer-types, building roads, building irrigation, followed by farms and railroads. It detracts from the game, does not expand on possible actions one iota, and Zanzin has it right. Worker units instead of public works is like transistors instead of ICs - a giant step backwards.
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Roman
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Bratislava, Slovakia
Sep 2000
time: 05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pleasant on 04-07-2001 07:37 AM
(1) Granted, Lancer, roads don't fall from the sky. But then again, does it matter if work crews are represented by units or a PW fund? After all, scientific discoveries and engineering blueprints do not fall from the sky, but I don't hear you clamouring for scientist units.
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As far as realism is concerned; the problem with the PW fund is that you can accumulate PW points. Since by far the biggest input into real-life public works is labour; this is essentially equivalent to stacking labour, which obviously cannot be done.
quote:
(2) Activision stole the whole damn game concept. Firaxis should not feel bad about borrowing one of activision's innovations. Besides, if CTPII had a worthy AI it owuld have been a damn fine game.
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Perhaps they could 'borrow' the PW concept, but why? I don't think it is superior.
quote:
(3) High stakes?!? Had you payed attention when playing CTP1 or 2, Raingoon, you might have noticed the burdensome costs of developing squares. Believe me, you dreaded the AI pillaging fisheries, advanced mines, or hydroponic farms.
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Well, this may be true, but I think what Lancer meant is that in Ctp you don't need to protect your building capabilities. Moreover, I hate the fact that in Ctp you can only build tile improvements in your own borders. What if you want to help your allied neigbour develop, or build engeneering works to support your advancing army?
quote:
(4) The AI has real trouble pathfinding development-type units. Just watch SMAC terraformers. PW eliminated those problems. It would be a real shame to give up that "feeling of accomplishment" for something as minor as a challenging computer opponent. The same points were made during an earlier discussion about the pathfinding for settler-type units. Unburden the AI.
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Firaxis said that this issue has already been solved and units now have 100% perfect pathfinding.
quote:
(5) I hate moving tons of developer-types, building roads, building irrigation, followed by farms and railroads. It detracts from the game, does not expand on possible actions one iota, and Zanzin has it right. Worker units instead of public works is like transistors instead of ICs - a giant step backwards.
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I disagree. In Ctp I always forgot to build public works, since I did not have a unit "flashing" when it finished its job as in Civ2. Furthermore, I think workers do not add so much to micromanagement at all. With PW you still have to place the tile improvements on individual tiles and with workers you even have hotkeys to accomplish this, which means less mouse clicks.
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Lancer
quote:
In real life roads are not dropped from the sky, they are built by workers.
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and tanks are not being built with a single order, you have to have factories and iron etc. i dont see you complaining about the lack of realism in this part of the game 
Roman
quote:
this is essentially equivalent to stacking labour, which obviously cannot be done.
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while changing production from tanks to a bank and only loosing a part of your "shields" is extremely realistic....
quote:
What if you want to help your allied neigbour develop, or build engeneering works to support your advancing army?
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that's an improvement to the system that could be done.
quote:
Firaxis said that this issue has already been solved and units now have 100% perfect pathfinding.
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let me see it first and then i'll believe 
quote:
In Ctp I always forgot to build public works, since I did not have a unit "flashing" when it finished its job as in Civ2
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one of the small mods using slic adds a warning box when you have too much pw points. is that all?
quote:
with workers you even have hotkeys to accomplish this, which means less mouse clicks
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dont forget that you have to order them to move where you want them first, wait until they get there etc....
raingoon
quote:
PW took away my sense of accomplishment when I finally built that trans-continental railroad, etc
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have you ever stopped spending pw points while waiting to discover railroad, and when you do to upgrade your "trans-continental road" to a "trans-continental railroad" in one turn? that is an accomplishment
remember people: just because a game is different, it doesnt mean that it cant be fun in a different way than what you are used to....
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07-04-2001 01:46
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