21-04-2002 20:13									#31
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I don't deny that Snapcase. I even think that Nazi literature is more popular than ever these days among Arabs, probably also Palestinian. But I think the relevant tie is anti-semitism.

Didn't find a single picture via image search and my knowledge about leftie sites is limited. there are some demonstration pics on www.antifas.de , but you don't see anarchists in scarves there. But that doesn't matter anymore.

	21-04-2002 20:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'm talking about German teens on the street, not fat Americans in their homes. You will find that the left-wing movement on the street has been pretty active from '68 on, and their positions are anti-Us most of the times. That is because by 'lefties' us Europeans mostly refer to socialists, not liberals. Just a cultural misunderstanding in this case.

Okay, I get it now. I was referring to lefties and righties by US standards.

	21-04-2002 20:27									#33
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There have been ties between militant Black nationalist Islam and the white supremicist movement in the US for over a decade. Louis Farrakhan and Tom Metzger of the White Aryan Resitence met, and Metzger said that this guy wants the same thing we do (seperate white and Black homelands). My source for this is the ADL, so it's possible that this was overblown, seeing as the ADL goes apopleptic about Farrakhan (maybe with good reason).

During the Gulf War, neo-Nazis would visit our demonstrations, also opposing the war (but because they thought it was a war to save the Jews ). They marched through once, obliquely, then high-tailed it out of their before we realized who they were (we saw them leaving).

Neo-Nazis are not pro-US. They believe that the US is lead by ZOG (what an evil sounding name), the Zionist Occupation Government, which is oppressing white men and women by unleashing Blacks upon us. (Yay ZOG!) If you look at who a lot of these guys are, however, you realize they have a lot of serious grevances. They just point at scapegoats instead of the true causes of their conditions.

	21-04-2002 20:47									#34
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Of course these guys have something in common, they have their lust for hate, a hate that masks all their personal short comings and explains all their personal failures. That is certainly what the neo-nazis movement is about, and they may very well recognize the Muslim fundamentalists as kindred spirits, so it doesn't matter that the association seems contradictory. I don't think that you can always fit the neo-nazis into a neat continuum between left and right either. They've always chosen theri ideology to fit the situation.

	21-04-2002 20:54									#35
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That's only because right-wingers are ashamed to be linked with them. But their politics, stripped of hate, is exceedingly conservative and pro-small business: women's place is in the home, having babies; men's role is as the provider and ruler or the house; homosexuality is a crime against nature and God; anti-big government; etc. The one thing that seperates them from the right and sort of links them to the left, is their anti-corporate rhetoric, which they've always lost the moment it becomes convenient for them to do so.

	21-04-2002 21:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's only because right-wingers are ashamed to be linked with them. But their politics, stripped of hate, is exceedingly conservative and pro-small business: women's place is in the home, having babies; men's role is as the provider and ruler or the house; homosexuality is a crime against nature and God; anti-big government; etc.

But the right doesn't believe in anti-miscegnation laws and racial separatism. Also, there's an anti-Christian strand of neo-Nazism which views Christian morality as a Jewish plot; needless to say, this view separates them from the mainstream right.

quote: The one thing that seperates them from the right and sort of links them to the left, is their anti-corporate rhetoric, which they've always lost the moment it becomes convenient for them to do so.

They're also separated from the right by their racism, anti-Semitism, and violence.

	21-04-2002 21:41									#37
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quote: They're also separated from the right by their racism, anti-Semitism, and violence.

Oh well, that might be a very thin line...

	21-04-2002 21:42									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Natan But the right doesn't believe in anti-miscegnation laws and racial separatism.

Bob Jones University? And the Right has only recently given up it's aversion to "racial mixing." (Yay racial mixing! )

quote: Also, there's an anti-Christian strand of neo-Nazism which views Christian morality as a Jewish plot; needless to say, this view separates them from the mainstream right.

Okay, I stand corrected. There area also those who say communism is a Jewish plot to destroy Chrisitainity.

quote: They're also separated from the right by their racism, anti-Semitism, and violence.

There is far more of that on the right than on the left.

	21-04-2002 21:47									#39
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quote: There is far more of that on the right than on the left.

Most of them prefer to be associated with the Christian Identity movement rather than the vaguely pagan Neo-Nazi movement though.

	21-04-2002 21:53									#40
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Bob Jones University? And the Right has only recently given up it's aversion to "racial mixing." (Yay racial mixing! )

Define "recently."

quote: Okay, I stand corrected. There area also those who say communism is a Jewish plot to destroy Chrisitainity.

And I think they're both equally looney in the eyes of any sane person, left or right wing.

quote: There is far more of that on the right than on the left.

Yes, although in other countries political violence is the province of the left.

Kropotkin: What are you saying?

	21-04-2002 22:14									#41
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It looks like the adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" still holds true.

	21-04-2002 22:30									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Kropotkin: What are you saying?

That the parties and people to the right often have flirtet with racism, anti-semtism and violence.

	21-04-2002 22:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin That the parties and people to the right often have flirtet with racism, anti-semtism and violence.

As far as I can tell, no more so than those on the left.

	21-04-2002 22:40									#44
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racism and anit-semtism is hardly part of the lefts ideology. Violence is a open question.

	21-04-2002 23:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin racism and anit-semtism is hardly part of the lefts ideology. Violence is a open question.

They're hardly part of the right's agenda either, but they make convenient political ploys.

	21-04-2002 23:35									#46
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Racism and anti-semitism have a lot more to do with conservative values of the right than it has to do with socialism or liberalism.

	21-04-2002 23:37									#47
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For Kropotkin, Natan, Dalgetti and BeBro, these guys are fascists and Neo Nazis, especially those with red-crossed 2nd-Reich-map and those with the headline "fight fascists"

in case you can't see it, they're wearing said scarves

"Never again Germany... and never again German Empire"

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	21-04-2002 23:37									#48
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next

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	21-04-2002 23:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Racism and anti-semitism have a lot more to do with conservative values of the right than it has to do with socialism or liberalism.

that's what I was talking about but yu didn't accept it... it seems some people value points by username rather than content

	21-04-2002 23:38									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin btw, i have to intrupt a bit since I feel highly annoyed at being called stupid by Echt. since a) I didn't defend the article like Echt implies I did b) a dress code doesn't mean that they are not confused and c) Echt. don't know **** about 'skinheads'

The best policy is to let him talk and allow him to give plenty of examples of what kind person he is. Because there is no use in trying to have a coversation. Think Giancarlo.

	21-04-2002 23:40									#51
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I don't see any connection to Giancarlo. You guys are trying to tell me that these people are Neo Nazis, what's going on in my country and what I think. I'm defending my society, while Giancarlo just bashes people.

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	21-04-2002 23:40									#52
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do you want me to post more "Nazis", you idiots?

	21-04-2002 23:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion that's what I was talking about but yu didn't accept it... it seems some people value points by username rather than content

Well, until this thread I did not do it, but it is definately worth a thought.

Nice pics, btw. I still fail to see how this is proof enough to ignore every other detail of the article (which you even did not read completely, as you said) and insult everyone who does not agree with your viewpoint. But if it makes you feel better continue this little crusade...

	21-04-2002 23:48									#54
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The fact the I wear a big green hat doesn't exclude another guy from wearing it.

By that logic , the Islamic Jihad, that also wear this , and are a religious fundamentalist ultra nationalist organization are also left-wingers

	21-04-2002 23:49									#55
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Is Echt. making any sence to anyone?

	21-04-2002 23:54									#56
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Dalgetti, I want to make this understandable even for you, let me have a try.

Burning US flags has been popular among lefties on the street, so has wearing said scarves been. Of course that doesn't exclude Neo Nazis doing that, but we're talking about tendencies in society here. The author stresses certain leanings gaining power, but whatever he saw, it was definitely no proof of growing anti-semitism. Either those were totally fooked up neo nazis that had less than no clue what they were doing since they were being pretty Antifa-ish. OR they were lefties. Which of those two possibilities is a danger to our modern societies and the Jewish people?

And BeBro - being so (author) bold is indeed a sign of not being worthy of being taken seriously. If you only stopped designing things and left your house for one minute, you could see extremist groups. And then you'd notice how silly it is to call those guys Neo Nazis.

While it is hardly a sensible act (to me) to burn another country's flag, and while there actually is such a thing as a Neo-Nazi-movement, those things don't go hand in hand with each other. The author is simplifying that to "anti-US = anti-semitism", but alas we're talking about different tendencies here, that are opposed to each other.

	21-04-2002 23:55									#57
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a gloomy silence follows this question.

	21-04-2002 23:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Is Echt. making any sence to anyone?

I know your spelling doesn't make any sense to me, Spotty Kropotty.

In case you lack the intellectual ability to get other people's points, then I'll explain it again, just for you: I'm trying to show you that people with coloured hair that burn US flags wearing Palestinian-style scarves are not Neo Nazis but extreme leftists (or moderate ones among the extremes if you want me to be un-general). It isn't actually that hard to get.

	21-04-2002 23:58									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Racism and anti-semitism have a lot more to do with conservative values of the right than it has to do with socialism or liberalism.

Racism is just factually wrong, in that it is based onn now-debunked biological theories. No serious person on either right or left believes it. As for anti-Semitism, while the nationalism of the right makes some right-wingers opposed to Jews as foriegners, leftists often oppose Jews for being different as well. Left-wing anti-Semitism certainly exists. Anti-Jewish persecutions were just as if not more nasty in the USSR than in interwar Poland, and certainly were way, way nastier than anything which happened in the United States.

	21-04-2002 23:59									#60
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Ecthelion: that was only a single example he brought.

you have evidences coming up from people that are left-wingers, such as Snapcase , and che. I am rather unusual left-winger, so you can count me out, but don't you think you should at least read?