22-04-2002 01:45									#31
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Well, not that this wasn't expected. I mean if you followed the French elections, you'd know that people were pissed at both Chirac and Jospin. First and foremost the fact that both delayed declaring they were running so they could get a political advantage closer to the election (even though everyone knew they would).

What happened is that Le Pen was the victor in all this and Jospin the loser. I mean, Jospin's allies had much more choice in the form of other parties. Chirac's supporters really didn't have much else except Chirac.

And this is why Socialists will not win, because they divide themselves waaaay too much .

	22-04-2002 01:45									#32
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Dal, I'm sorry that you see it this way.
It's not like that at all, believe me.

The two things: 1) Holocaust 2) Present Israeli policies in the occupied territories are not linked but it interests some people to link them so to get sympathy for Israel.

Jewish people and what they have been through are one thing.
Israel's policies in the Middle east are another.

BTW, from all people you chose me to tell me I'm not open to other opinions/points of view... Well, all I can say is, you're wrong


Natan,
Violence against Greek Jews is considered like violence against Greek Orthodox (or Greek whatever) or foreign citizen whatever. It is true, it simply does not happen (based on religion/race - there might be violence for other reasons though: a car - accident argument for example )

But there is police discrimination against immigrants (mainly Albanians) and to a lesser degree against Gypsies. IMO this is the first subject to be addressed in Greece now (from a human rights point of view).



About Norway: I don't know what things unfortunately. I heard a broadcasting about this in TV5 (International French - speaking chanel). The jewish pupils of these norwegian schools were harrassed by their co-pupils (specifically for being jewish) and they had to change schools. That's what it said.
It was a broadcasting about anti-semitism in Europe.

	22-04-2002 01:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And this is why Socialists will not win, because they divide themselves waaaay too much .

Nah, it's because we actually hold our leaders accountable, instead of following them blindly like right-wing sheep. If they fail to do what we put them their for, we let them lose. What's the point of voting for the left, and getting what the right wants anyway?

	22-04-2002 01:52									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Schröder's party just got b*tch-slapped in Saxony-Anhalt. The Christian-Dems have recovered from their mess with Kohl, and the big surprise is the Party of Democraitc Socialism, the commies, are in second place. Let that be a lesson to all wishy-washy social democrats. Kiss the asses of your class enemies and you will be removed from power when your party base abstains from voting.

You're missing my point. He counted Haider, Berlusconi and Le Pen as examples for populism, and then Schröder. It's basically nonsense, because the former are (merely) right-wing populists while the latter has a halfway decent international reputation for being a serious politician. Like Blair.

No personal point of view included.

	22-04-2002 01:57									#35
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quote: Nah, it's because we actually hold our leaders accountable, instead of following them blindly like right-wing sheep. If they fail to do what we put them their for, we let them lose.

Can't compromise... this is a major failing of the left. If you can't get everything you want, you don't want anything.

It is better to be elected with someone you agree with 75% of the time, than not to be elected at all.

	22-04-2002 02:00									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion It is quite thick to have Schröder in that list, but I'm not surprised by you any more.

He shouldn't, I mixed him up with Haider while writing. me and names, always seem to mix 'em up... Oh well not that much of a difference.

	22-04-2002 02:00									#37
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Social Deocracy is in turmoil in Europe. Few countries will hold that up. Even in Greece which has had Social Democratic government for 20 whole years (with the exception of 3 years) the latest polls indicate that when the elections come up (in 2 years or so) the right wing will win them.

Then again the SDs have managed to turn around things many mnay times. You never know.

But the bad thing is, you can't tell the difference any more...

	22-04-2002 02:03									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I guess you're right. I'm thinking in "best for the Jews" terms.

IMHO Le Pen would be more likely to chase the millions of Muslims out of France than to touch a hair on a Jew's head.

	22-04-2002 02:03									#39
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I shall forgive one last time, Schröder is a git anyway

	22-04-2002 02:04									#40
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Well, it goes in cycles... you have in 80s, a more right leaning view in the world, and then in the 90s, a more left leaning view... and now it seems to shift back to the right .

	22-04-2002 02:04									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Colon IMHO Le Pen would be more likely to have the millions of Muslims scurrying out of France than to touch a hair on a Jew's head.

why is that?

	22-04-2002 02:05									#42
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Though you can point to Hungary for a leftist victory .

http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/eu...tion/index.html

	22-04-2002 02:05									#43
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maybe it's time for a Simpson quite: [a member of the jury during the trial against sideshow bob] "He speaks german, he can't be evil!"

	22-04-2002 02:06									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion why is that?

His main problem is with the immigrants... ie, Muslims.

	22-04-2002 02:08									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well, it goes in cycles... you have in 80s, a more right leaning view in the world, and then in the 90s, a more left leaning view... and now it seems to shift back to the right .

It seems to be that way doesn't it?

Immigration plays now a significant role in the buffign up of the right wing.

I'm surprised the New Democracy (Greece's right wing party) hasn't picked that line yet...

	22-04-2002 02:09									#46
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not all immigrants are muslims. there are many from sub-saharan africa as well.

	22-04-2002 02:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin maybe it's time for a Simpson quite: [a member of the jury during the trial against sideshow bob] "He speaks german, he can't be evil!"

Nonono, that's not "Die, Bart, die"

It's "Die, Bart, die"

	22-04-2002 02:10									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti not all immigrants are muslims. there are many from sub-saharan africa as well.

we're talking "immigrants" as opposed to "Jews, who have probably lived there for generations"

	22-04-2002 02:12									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Colon IMHO Le Pen would be more likely to chase the millions of Muslims out of France than to touch a hair on a Jew's head.

That's why I voted for him. The enemy of your enemy...

	22-04-2002 02:14									#50
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quote: not all immigrants are muslims. there are many from sub-saharan africa as well.

But that isn't who Le Pen rails again.

quote: That's why I voted for him. The enemy of your enemy...

Yes, we know you like racists, you support Sharon, after all.

	22-04-2002 02:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Eli That's why I voted for him. The enemy of your enemy...

And that's where you're wrong Eli

Le Pen is a fascist. A fascist in nice, acceptable clothes, but a fascist nevertheless.

After the muslim - non muslims immigrants, who do you think will come next?

(not that this will happen of course, he's not winning. But the fact that he's getting these % is a cause of worry - definitely).

	22-04-2002 02:15									#52
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You voted Le Pen? Just let me get this straight, you moved there, "acquired" French citizenship (no Provost, he didn't download it ) and then voted for HIM?

or in the poll?

	22-04-2002 02:16									#53
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maybe Le Pen give them all a ticket to a tourist restort in israel and then refuse to take them back. That would be... interesting...

	22-04-2002 02:18									#54
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"But that isn't who Le Pen rails against"

well , I wouldn't be so sure.

He's supposedly taking a" tough against crime " position... Do you think that he thinks that muslims are causing more crime?

	22-04-2002 02:19									#55
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The guy detest anything that has moved into France the past millenium or so. That hatred would translate itself into attempts to favour "native French" over the "immigrants". The Jews would probably be the last to be affected by Le Pen's lunacies because all far-right politicians are scared as chicken to be viewed as the new Hitler bent on unleashing a new holocaust.

	22-04-2002 02:20									#56
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Given how Franks themselves have only lived there for 200 years longer than a millennium ago...

	22-04-2002 02:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 After the muslim - non muslims immigrants, who do you think will come next?

The Jews of course. And what will the result be? A mass immigration wave of Jews to Israel.

	22-04-2002 02:21									#58
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Yeah well, I was a bit slow to make my reply but I guess the point got across anyway.

	22-04-2002 02:22									#59
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well, I think that would give a nice big zionist "told you so" to all those "jews don't need a country of their own, they're safe here" people.

	22-04-2002 02:24									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Eli The Jews of course. And what will the result be? A mass immigration wave of Jews to Israel.

Heh, and the next step?

Massive support to Arabs to crush Israel.

Or do you think fascism (inherently anti-semitic) stops inside one's country borders?