22-04-2002 02:25									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Eli The Jews of course. And what will the result be? A mass immigration wave of Jews to Israel.

Yes, after their property and a lot of their money gets taken away.

Nice to see that you are actively willing to sacrifice your own people's happiness just for your political aims. You are truly scum.

quote: Do you think that he thinks that muslims are causing more crime?

YES! That is one of the main claims among European far-rightists that Turks, Algerians, etc... cause more crime than native Euros.

	22-04-2002 02:26									#62
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quote: Or do you think fascism (inherently anti-semitic) stops inside one's country borders?

Well, fascism isn't inherantly anti-semitic. I mean, Mussolini's Italy wasn't anti-Jewish.

	22-04-2002 02:26									#63
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well If that happens:

then:

-massive support to arabs to crush Israel
-Israel still wins.
-Arabs still whine.

	22-04-2002 02:27									#64
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Immigrants (muslims non muslims mean nothing) do cause more crime. But that means nothing and is easily explained.
The question is to address the problem not to overkill.

	22-04-2002 02:28									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, after their property and a lot of their money gets taken away.

I think the lesson from the holocaust was learned. This time they will not be waiting till the last minute.

	22-04-2002 02:29									#66
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quote: -massive support to arabs to crush Israel -Israel still wins.

Not this time... not with the vast increases in technology in the Arab world. This time, Egypt itself could probably hold Israel in a stalemate.

	22-04-2002 02:29									#67
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quote: YES! That is one of the main claims among European far-rightists that Turks, Algerians, etc... cause more crime than native Euros.

I meant more than other immigrants...

	22-04-2002 02:32									#68
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Heh, first time I hear it...

Nope. There is no basis for that. No studies support it.


And again you have to take into account each country, its history, its relations with other countries....


This is a big subject that can't be contained in a general argument.

fact is these people are anti-immigration. Period. It's just that the largest waves of immigration are muslims. that's as far as it goes.

	22-04-2002 02:32									#69
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quote: I meant more than other immigrants...

Yes, the far right claims they do.

quote: I think the lesson from the holocaust was learned. This time they will not be waiting till the last minute.

People don't like leaving their homes, where they've lived for ages. I think they will stay much later than you'd think.

	22-04-2002 02:34									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I meant more than other immigrants... Yes, the far right claims they do.

Where? In which country do they claim that?

	22-04-2002 02:35									#71
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France, Germany...

In Germany it is the Turks, in France the Algerians.

	22-04-2002 02:36									#72
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you've apparently misunderstood me completely.

It's not my opinion. It's the opinion that people around here have about Le Pen. I don't think that he thinks that muslims are especially criminalistic, I think he thinks this way about all imigrants.

and I don't think that north african muslims are the majority of the immigrants to france.

	22-04-2002 02:39									#73
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The jews in france haven't mostly lived there for ages. The Nazis took care of them . the ones there are people that immigrated in the 50s from northen Africa, leaving the new-born Arab countries.

	22-04-2002 02:40									#74
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quote: and I don't think that north african muslims are the majority of the immigrants to france.

I believe they are... and from what I've read, Le Pen seems to spend most of his time railing against the Algerians.

	22-04-2002 02:40									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui France, Germany... In Germany it is the Turks, in France the Algerians.

They are against all immigrants. Turks and Algerians are the largest immigrant groups in these countries and they happen to be muslim. In Belgium is the marocans.
Besides neo nazi attacks have happened in many other peoples who are not muslim in Germany. (including Greeks and Italians and in Sweden against Yugoslavs and people from eastern Europe) etc etc etc etc

	22-04-2002 02:41									#76
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quote: Besides neo nazi attacks have happened in many other peoples who are not muslim in Germany.

Neo-Nazis are just nuts... the far-right parties are a little less nuts, and they seem to yell at Muslims more than other immigrants.

	22-04-2002 02:43									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: -massive support to arabs to crush Israel -Israel still wins. Not this time... not with the vast increases in technology in the Arab world. This time, Egypt itself could probably hold Israel in a stalemate.

well , in no war with Egypt was Israel superior to it technologically. esp. in 73. Both Syria and Egypt outnumbered and had similar if not favourable techs there.

(waits for pointless bragging about soviet tech being lame. )

Paiktis:

I am glad we agree on this.

	22-04-2002 02:44									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Besides neo nazi attacks have happened in many other peoples who are not muslim in Germany. Neo-Nazis are just nuts... the far-right parties are a little less nuts, and they seem to yell at Muslims more than other immigrants.

Again, I tell you, AFAIK (and I'm not an expert on the issue) they are against immigration. Just happens that most immigrants are of muslim religion and it seems they are against muslims.


The only far right wing anti - muslim party is AFAIK in the Netherlands. (its leader is gay and he is pissed muslim religion doesn't accept him... )


AGAIN, 40% of population in major cities in Holland are immigrants and there are no problems... go figure.

	22-04-2002 02:44									#79
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Imran : because there are more of them.

	22-04-2002 02:54									#80
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Yes, and there were more Jews during Hitler's time, didn't mean he just hated them because they were more.

quote: AGAIN, 40% of population in major cities in Holland are immigrants and there are no problems... go figure.

We aren't talking about Holland.

	22-04-2002 02:59									#81
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quote: Yes, and there were more Jews during Hitler's time, didn't mean he just hated them because they were more.

more of them relative to what?
maybe it's you who feels threatened all the time ...

I say that he points his criticism not because they're muslims but because they're immigrants. you could also see him bashing other immigrants.

	22-04-2002 03:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, and there were more Jews during Hitler's time, didn't mean he just hated them because they were more.

Imran... I think he hated them because they were Jews...

quote: AGAIN, 40% of population in major cities in Holland are immigrants and there are no problems... go figure.

We aren't talking about Holland. [/QUOTE]

About who are we talking then?

Do you think they are clear cut disctinctions in Europe?

There's only one (and I know I'm being a "heretic" for saying that but I believe that hiding the truth and pretent it doesn't exist is the worst thing one can do) and that is between North and South Europe.

Different people, different mentalities, different problems.
I'm sorry if I'm busting our sweet EU dream, the truth be told.

True some countries have more problems with Neo - Nazis and right wing.
The hot spots remain Germany, Austria and Scandinavia and to a lesser extend Britain. (As far as the EU is conscerned)

Countries where walking at night can get you beaten up or killed just because you are not the "correct" shade of color.

Not in Greece. Not in most South Europe.

I think you are wrong to confuse this with hatred against muslims. It is typical northern white racism. The one I got busted for mentioning here once.


In short, these people are against immigration in general and in particular from people that are not like themselves.
Muslims, non muslims makes little difference.

As long as they are "stealing their jobs and their health security" (and in more severe cases) "polluting their cities and race" they are the enemy.

Turks are 4 million in Germany.

Once a Greek restaurant owner was attacked by some Neo Nazis.

The people who came at his rescue were turks...

Where's your claim about religion now Imran?

	22-04-2002 03:01									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Colon IMHO Le Pen would be more likely to chase the millions of Muslims out of France than to touch a hair on a Jew's head.

Considering how every anti-jews action in France is linked to his political movement, and how he is often talking about a "jewish plot", I would not bet anything on the security of Jews if he happened to get the power...

	22-04-2002 03:07									#84
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Akka



oh, and btw, apology accepted.

	22-04-2002 03:10									#85
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By far some of the best news for a long time. Hopefully we'll now start getting some sensible policies on mainland Europe (if Le Pen gets to be PM, that is!).

	22-04-2002 03:22									#86
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The Le Pen of Wales has arrived at the scene.... Oh well

	22-04-2002 03:22									#87
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He's actually running for President, not PM

	22-04-2002 03:24									#88
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First of all, I'd like to say I'm French, and I'm ashamed of my country. I often bash other countries (Israel electing Sharon, Italy electing Berlusconi, USA electing Dubya...), but today, it's time to me to face the truth : we need to be ashamed as much as any other countries.
Our choice at the second turn is between an absolute crook who betrays the interests of France and a porky fascist. Chirac will get elected at 80% or so, because he's a republican, and most left-winged voters and right-wing will vote against fascism. I hate Chirac, but I always told I'd vote for him i he's the only wall against fascism. And I'll do. I'll vote without hesitation for this crook. Because I don't want my country, which fancies calling itself "the Country of Rights of Man" being led by a fascist. Because I don't want people abroad to see us as more fascist as we are.
A President in France is the one incarnating the Nation... I won't allow France to support Le Pen.

	22-04-2002 03:27									#89
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Spiffor, can you explain me something?

In a recent EU poll French youth was the least xenophobic of Europe. (and Greek one the most xenophobic of all)

How come Le Pen got such percentages?

	22-04-2002 03:32									#90
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Don't you want to see something done about crime? About employment?



Le Pen isn't against the immigrants themselves (ie, he isn't a racist), but he is against immigration. Big difference.

Without such a pandering to political correctness, France will be able to deal more effectively with crime (with the acknowledgement that minorities do commit more crime). Etc etc.