22-04-2002 03:33									#91
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Your avatar icon would make your posts look totally stupid didn't their contents already do so

	22-04-2002 03:34									#92
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So what's you problem Spink, do all the immgrants steal all your girls so you can't get a date ehh?

	22-04-2002 03:37									#93
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Spiffor, can you explain me something? In a recent EU poll French youth was the least xenophobic of Europe. (and Greek one the most xenophobic of all) How come Le Pen got such percentages?

Some reasons :

1) 28 % abstentions. It's actually the highest abstention ever for a presidential election in France.

2) Insecurity : French see their cities becoming less and less secure (armed crimes are exploding, robbery and agression start to be common), so they vote for the one who got the most populist and firm speech about it (not seeing that the town which were led by this very party had increased violence).

3) Protest. French are a very protesting people They used to vote somehow anything the first turn, just to show they are not happy with what the other "serious" candidate are proposing. It's just that, this time, they protested a little too much...

4) Dispersion. There were more "big" candidates from the left than from the right. It leads that the votes were more concentrated for the right, hence better result per candidates.

	22-04-2002 03:42									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil 3) Protest. French are a very protesting people They used to vote somehow anything the first turn, just to show they are not happy with what the other "serious" candidate are proposing. It's just that, this time, they protested a little too much...

This rings a clear bell here... It is the same here as well.

quote: 4) Dispersion. There were more "big" candidates from the left than from the right. It leads that the votes were more concentrated for the right, hence better result per candidates.

Which electoral system are you using? (if you don't know it in english say it in french maybe I'll understand).

	22-04-2002 03:48									#95
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It would be far, far worse if any of the left groups had got to the final stages.

As such, .

	22-04-2002 03:53									#96
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You know, I'd guess that if anything, Muslim immigrants would have lower crime rates than other groups, because most Muslim societies have remarkably low crime rates.

	22-04-2002 04:02									#97
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Natan,

"The way crime has moved to the centre of the political debate in France has played into Le Pen's hands.

And the post-11 September mood - in which for the first time even politicians of the left speak of the disproportionate number of crimes committed by North African Arabs - also helps."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1938190.stm

Does anyone else find it odd that, given the current situation in the MiddleEast, the Jews here are complaining about the political advancement of a right-wing candidate who is openly against immigration?

	22-04-2002 04:04									#98
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Natan. try not to read things about France from a British medium and vice versa.

Believe me.

	22-04-2002 04:04									#99
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 This rings a clear bell here... It is the same here as well. Which electoral system are you using? (if you don't know it in english say it in french maybe I'll understand).

French system is simple : 1 voter => 1 vote

Seriously, here is how it works for the presidential election :

First turn, everybody is allowed to be a candidate provided he is French and has 500 signatures from other elected people (example : mayors).
If during this first turn, someone got the absolute majority, he is immediately elected.
If no one can reach that level, then there is a second turn between the two candidates that got the most votes during the first turn.

	22-04-2002 04:06									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Akka le Vil French system is simple : 1 voter => 1 vote Seriously, here is how it works for the presidential election : First turn, everybody is allowed to be a candidate provided he is French and has 500 signatures from other elected people (example : mayors). If during this first turn, someone got the absolute majority, he is immediately elected. If no one can reach that level, then there is a second turn between the two candidates that got the most votes during the first turn.

Apli Analogiki. ok thanks

	22-04-2002 04:07									#101
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apli analogiki ecthelinaki

	22-04-2002 04:07									#102
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BTW I want to be correct and not one sided. You know I talked about the descecration of jewish cemetaries in Europe but that it did not happen in Greece? Well... it happened. Some people sprayed the word "Palestinians" in red paint in a site which is dedicated to victimes of the Holocaust (the mainly the Greek Jews of Thessaloniki). In other news... In Norway, jewish pupils had to change schools because the norwegians were telling them things... Now IF what I just said is used IN ANY WAY to justify present Israeli policy in the occupied Palestine, I'll not say anything else again. I'm all for spotting problems, identifying them and solving them BUT NOT for using them for "propaganda"... ok? Cheers

I dont think anyone has said that the problem of anti-semitism in contemporary Europe justifies one policy or the other of Israel, the PA, or anyone else in the mideast. SOME have raised the possibility that it would justify that European govts, organizations, and private individuals re-examine the kind of rhetoric they are using.

LOTM

	22-04-2002 04:08									#103
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quote: apli analogiki ecthelinaki

(in a purely platonic way )

	22-04-2002 04:12									#105
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I dont think anyone has said that the problem of anti-semitism in contemporary Europe justifies one policy or the other of Israel, the PA, or anyone else in the mideast. SOME have raised the possibility that it would justify that European govts, organizations, and private individuals re-examine the kind of rhetoric they are using. LOTM

It has been said, a lot of times, that some in Israel and some Jewish people in general when someone critizes present Israeli policies in the Middle East immideatly and automatically they label him/her as an "anti-semetic".

Not only is it, well, ridiculous, it is also counter - productive because the word "anti-semitic" loses its original meaning. And that, IMHO, is dangerous.

	22-04-2002 04:17									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion we're talking "immigrants" as opposed to "Jews, who have probably lived there for generations"

while there certainly are Jews who have lived in France for generations, the majority of the Jews of France today are immigrants from North Africa, or their children or grandchildren, who mainly came to France between 1948 and 1962.

Granted there is no prospect of further Jewish migration to France, as there are hardly any Jews left in North Africa, putting them in a seperate category as far as Le Penism is concerned, but I think the North African origin of French Jewry is worth keeping in mind in the current crisis. For one thing the Nroth African Jews have been much more Zionist, and much less inclined to avoid making trouble than Ashkenazic (european origin) French jew have been. also the notion that Israel is a "foreign, colonial intrusion" in the middle east obviously makes no sense them.

LOTM

	22-04-2002 04:24									#107
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 It has been said, a lot of times, that some in Israel and some Jewish people in general when someone critizes present Israeli policies in the Middle East immideatly and automatically they label him/her as an "anti-semetic". Not only is it, well, ridiculous, it is also counter - productive because the word "anti-semitic" loses its original meaning. And that, IMHO, is dangerous.

NOt everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semitic - israelis criticize their own government all the time. But almost all anti-semites ARE anti-Israel, and being anti-Israeli is a good cover for anti-semitism. And people who treat Israel more harshly than other nations, who criticize it unfairly, may be reasonably suspected of anti-semitism. This applies a fortiori to those who deny the right of israel to exist, who state thereby that the Jews have no right to a state. And i believe it applies to those who fail to see that the security needs of Israel must be seen in the context of past anti-semitism, including the holocaust. And as for those who focus their rhetoric on "the Israeli lobby". on alleged "pro-israeli" influence in the press, their anti-semitism is only thinly veiled.

LOTM

	22-04-2002 04:30									#108
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quote: And as for those who focus their rhetoric on "the Israeli lobby". on alleged "pro-israeli" influence in the press, their anti-semitism is only thinly veiled.

This is exactly what Paiktis was talking about.

Hatred of the Israeli state (or the pro-Israeli media and lobby) doesn't automatically equal hatred for all Jews.

	22-04-2002 04:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Natan, "The way crime has moved to the centre of the political debate in France has played into Le Pen's hands. And the post-11 September mood - in which for the first time even politicians of the left speak of the disproportionate number of crimes committed by North African Arabs - also helps." http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1938190.stm Does anyone else find it odd that, given the current situation in the MiddleEast, the Jews here are complaining about the political advancement of a right-wing candidate who is openly against immigration?

Well of course - we dont want anti- arab racists!!! Racism against Arabs is wrong in itself, and will most certainly end up being anti-Jewish as well (even if we did not already know that Le Pen is anti-Jewish) The mideast conflict is a dispute between two nations over land and security, and is not about race hatred, at least as far as 98% of Jewish Israelis and many Palestinians are concerned.

LOTM

	22-04-2002 04:35									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And as for those who focus their rhetoric on "the Israeli lobby". on alleged "pro-israeli" influence in the press, their anti-semitism is only thinly veiled. This is exactly what Paiktis was talking about. Hatred of the Israeli state (or the pro-Israeli media and lobby) doesn't automatically equal hatred for all Jews.

Paiktis said "criticism" of the Israeli state. There is a difference between criticism and hatred.

and references to pro-israeli media are virtually word for word imitations of traditional anti-semitic rants.

"i dont hate all blacks - just these civil rights radicals who dont know their place" - would anyone deny that is racism?? Similarly "I dont hate all Jew - just the 98% who think that there should be a Jewish state in the world" - That is rather different from "I dont hate jews, but i think israel should dismantle all settlements"

LOTM

	22-04-2002 04:39									#111
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quote: Similarly "I dont hate all Jew - just the 98% who think that there should be a Jewish state in the world"

I've never heard ANYONE say this.

quote: and references to pro-israeli media are virtually word for word imitations of traditional anti-semitic rants.

Once again . The US media is very pro-Israel, as most lefties (who aren't the ones to be anti-semetic) can tell you.

	22-04-2002 05:38									#112
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French Nazis. I hate those guys.

	22-04-2002 05:47									#113
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Paik, consider the following:

1) If Israel gets beaten thanks to the support Europe gives the Arabs, what will happen?

well:
1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay.

or:

2) The israelis, in retaliation, nuke several dozen arab cities. Henceforth, the Muslims pray towards the glowing rock.

3) They nuke brussels. If the Europeans were helping, say, Mexico conquer the USA, and the stated goal of mexico was the destruction of America's people, I'd support nuking the European capital.

	22-04-2002 05:58									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin Paik, consider the following: 1) If Israel gets beaten thanks to the support Europe gives the Arabs, what will happen? well: 1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay. or: 2) The israelis, in retaliation, nuke several dozen arab cities. Henceforth, the Muslims pray towards the glowing rock. 3) They nuke brussels. If the Europeans were helping, say, Mexico conquer the USA, and the stated goal of mexico was the destruction of America's people, I'd support nuking the European capital.

I wouldn't support Nuking unless the Euros were actively adding and abetting the enemy. There's a difference between expressing sympathy for a bad, bad group of people, and actually arming and funneling resources.

Incidently, I think Europe is showing a incredible misplacement of sympathies in this war, and would not be adverse to having them try to force the issue. (After which the USA would step in, thus driving Europe's impotence even further home)

	22-04-2002 06:16									#115
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Ah, but hasn't Paik repeatedly advocating arming and abetting the Palestinians? And the Arabs? Heck, he's done the latter in this thread.

	22-04-2002 06:30									#116
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quote: 1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay.

Um... no... if Israel gets beaten, they they have to suffer a humilating peace accord, just like the Arabs had to. As my g/f says, Israel needs to lose a war. Not badly, but just beaten.. and forced to make peace.

	22-04-2002 07:14									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: 1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay. Um... no... if Israel gets beaten, they they have to suffer a humilating peace accord, just like the Arabs had to. As my g/f says, Israel needs to lose a war. Not badly, but just beaten.. and forced to make peace.

Seriously though, what "humiliating peace accord" are you talking about? The one that gave Egypt all of its territory back? The one Jordan signed, which has helped out its economy tremendously? Or the peace accords that all the rest of the Arab powers have never signed? Israel still isn't recognized by most of the Arab world. How exactly were the Arabs humiliated? They may have been embarrassed by getting their asses kicked so badly, but Israel hasn't gotten jack **** out of any peace accords.

	22-04-2002 07:17									#118
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quote: but Israel hasn't gotten jack **** out of any peace accords.

Um... so wait, Israel never was in possession of the Sinai? And they still aren't in the Golan Heights? Oh, and those troops in the Shebaa Farms aren't Israeli?

	22-04-2002 07:29									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: but Israel hasn't gotten jack **** out of any peace accords. Um... so wait, Israel never was in possession of the Sinai? And they still aren't in the Golan Heights? Oh, and those troops in the Shebaa Farms aren't Israeli?

Don't act stupid, Imran. Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt when they signed their peace accord. Consequently, Israel didn't gain anything from the peace treaty (besides peace). Hardly a "humiliating peace accord".

As for the Golan Heights, they belonged to Syria. Tell me Imran, have Israel and Syria ever signed a peace accord?

	22-04-2002 07:47									#120
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quote: Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt when they signed their peace accord.

The 2nd Peace Accord... in '73, IIRC.