07-05-2002 09:51									#181
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , with all the land in the world , .....the towel-heads , who , where being kicked out of other countries , for blowing stuff up , .....came to our land , why , well , since the towels where to lazy to do anything themselves , ......and of course , the jews had put all the sweat in it , why should they work for it , ..... have a nice day

This type of crap isn't allowed. If you want to discuss the issues... fine. But one more post like this, and you are toast.

Have a nice day...

	07-05-2002 21:18									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Ned ... I can see the issue coming down to the land expropriated from the "Jordanian" government or the Bedouins. I can see how the Palestinians could believe that this is rightfully "their" land. I believe Jordan agreed to transfer its interests to the PA, not so? How, much land of this type was involved? Ned

But there's a difference.

The point is, that the Palestinians consider everything theirs.

Even lands that their landlords sold to us, and lands that were not owned by them but were given to us by the mandate.

Look at the massacares in 1921 and 1929. That was Arabs protesting over Jews buying territories.

In 1935 too, they massacared Jews and wanted the law to disallow Jews to purchase lands.

Jews paid more money for shitty desert and swampland, than one would pay for quality land in USA at the time.

They simply saw the whole neighbourhood as theirs. That's the root of the problem.

The attitude is similar to white folk not wanting african-americans in their neighbourhood or their town.

They refused to have a one large judeo-palestinian country and refused to allow the jews have a country besides them.

	07-05-2002 21:21									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith At what point do most Israelis believe it becomes counterproductive to continue to amass bargaining chips?

When the deal is done

quote: Is there sufficient sentiment to begin dismantling the more burdensome settlements as a show of good faith?

There used to be... and that happenned before 2000.

quote: Does the Oslo process provide for this?

It doesn't mention the settlements at all.

quote: Could it be done in return for, say, Arab countries renouncing the Khartoum Resolution calling for the destruction of Israel?

Renouncing it is cheap.

We agree to renounce the settlements

They now have 3 generations whose minds they've poisoned through the anti-semitic encitement.

quote: Or would it simply be in Isreal's eocnomic interest to cut some losses? Defending some of the outlying settlements must be a tremendous economic burden.

It is.

And many Israelis are opposing it, and demand the smaller but hard to protect settlements to be dismantled.

Bibi and Barak used to do that.

	07-05-2002 23:33									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov But there's a difference. The point is, that the Palestinians consider everything theirs. Even lands that their landlords sold to us, and lands that were not owned by them but were given to us by the mandate. Look at the massacares in 1921 and 1929. That was Arabs protesting over Jews buying territories. In 1935 too, they massacared Jews and wanted the law to disallow Jews to purchase lands. Jews paid more money for shitty desert and swampland, than one would pay for quality land in USA at the time. They simply saw the whole neighbourhood as theirs. That's the root of the problem. The attitude is similar to white folk not wanting african-americans in their neighbourhood or their town. They refused to have a one large judeo-palestinian country and refused to allow the jews have a country besides them.

I totally agree with you, Siro. The failure to make legitimate distinctions based on law, and to riot and kill Jews simply because they live next door to you, can only be described as racial or religious hatred. We in the U.S. now classify this kind of violence as "hate" crimes.

Somehow there is a view held by many of our European "Comrads" that the only people who are prejudiced are Europeans. This is patently rediculous when one views the hatred spewed forth by the Palestinians and many of their supporters.

This said, I believe the PA may have a legal basis for seeking redress in the Israeli court system. If Israel uses eminent domain, an exercise of sovereignty, to confiscate land in the West Bank, then I believe it owes the owners of the land just compensation. The owner would be the PA. The PA could sue in Israel's court system as property owners in "Israel."

Has the PA actually tried this?

Ned

	08-05-2002 22:34									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This said, I believe the PA may have a legal basis for seeking redress in the Israeli court system. If Israel uses eminent domain, an exercise of sovereignty, to confiscate land in the West Bank, then I believe it owes the owners of the land just compensation. The owner would be the PA. The PA could sue in Israel's court system as property owners in "Israel." Has the PA actually tried this? Ned

hi ,

the PA as a body has tried , but , they tend to do it for their intrest's , according to Israeli law , they have that right , and it happens , their is even a website , but only in hebrew , but what it comes to , is this , equal rights , now , we all see the pics and start to shout , but , the law say's , no illegal construction , so when the Israeli government decides to demolish the house their has been a lenghty legal battle beforehand , and no the Israeli courts are not always in favour of their government .

however when the property did belong to jew in 1948 , was taken with the war , and liberated in 1967 then the previous owners get their house or land back , now , this leads to almost always to "fight" , and then people , who dont now all the facts , take in favor the PA . i am sure that one could ask Sirotnikov or Eli , they shall confirm this .

As we speak about the PA , okay , now , what is the PA , and dont attack me on this one , just a buch of criminals ,....their are people in the PA who want to do something good , they want peace , but those people "get it" , they are intimidated , murdered , blackmailed , etc , .....

then , who leads the PA , yasser arafat , okay , belgium still has a warrant for his arrest , for blowing up one of their planes , ......., now this is detailed , their is evidence , but no courtcase , ...why , ...well
the Israeli govenment wanted to spunge the past , their was in 1996 a peace deal worked out on the island of Malta , the transscripts are public , i have read them , back and forth , actuallt everone should do so who wants to talk about it ,..
in there their is info about joint cooperation , weapons that Israel gives to the PA , bassically , the Israeli gave them everthing , money to start with , it was all thought about , in 32758 pages , ....
and it was working fine , until , some people started to say , we want more , we want war , ......and then we get where we are now . their where joint patrol's , mixed fire companies , ambulance , hospitals , it was working !!!

oh yeah , yasser arafat , and most people of the PA are also members of the Israeli parlement , and they are payed with money from Israel , .....to some people , on both sites this is like a sick joke

some people just want war , why , well , they have been in Libanon , and they grew up with war , they dont know anything else , the just want war .

fortunatly not everbody is like that , however if the PA and the Israeli's could get rid of these people then it would be such a nice place , ........

and they could work further with the property Q's , of course it is a given fact that most of the land in the Westbank belong to jews (or Israeli) now , that land shall have to be bought or traded , there are agreements about that , but lets not forget that the situation we have to today is mainly the cause of foreign powers , the waestbank was under control of a lot of countries , who even fought out there between themselves , Gaza was under control of Egypt , who did nothing there , in 1967 when Israel liberated that land their was no runnig water , no gas , no electricity , no phone , no infrastructure , the local's even welcomed the Israeli's , ........

some of that land belonged to people out of Ashkelon , but they gave the land to the local's , for free , ....however , the Israeli's who kept their land , have the right to build there , just like the right that someone from the Westbank or Gaza has , to buy land in Tel-Aviv , ......

have a nice day

	08-05-2002 23:19									#186
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Panag, If I understand you correctly, the PA does have a right of action in Israeli courts for compensation for land that Israel appropriates through eminent domain for the purposes of building new settlements.

Right?

Ned

	08-05-2002 23:44									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Panag, If I understand you correctly, the PA does have a right of action in Israeli courts for compensation for land that Israel appropriates through eminent domain for the purposes of building new settlements. Right? Ned

hi ,

right , one as a body (PA) , two , the people in question , three , the town and other "administrative and executive" bodies , ....

however , when it comes to compensation , you cant ask for that if its not yours in the first place , and a lot of people forget this , from time to time .

its not not only Israeli's who own land , a large group of foreign people , Libanese , Kopt , Berber , Druze , a whole buch of Greeks , the Vatican(!!!) and so on .

on top , the foreign powers that occupied Israel between 1948 - 1967 made a complete mess of it , Jordan was good at that , primarely in Jerusalem , .....even Iraqi troops stole houses , and their are even some coutcases for later this year that go about that , in one case their is this guy from the arab legion , he claimed that he had bought 2 houses , sjee in 1966 , he lost the case appealed , and lost again , one house was from a jew the other from an arab .

when the PA took the case again to court , an investigation by the UN brought forward an arab , he say's that the officer from the arab legion killed the people , the case is now on the list for the supreme court , ..........

have a nice day

	09-05-2002 01:39									#188
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Panag, Thanks much. I understand the situation a lot better.

From an "historical" perspective, I don't understand how Israeli's moving onto land they own or purchase in the West Bank can be a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Prior to 1948, Jews could live anywhere in Palestine. How could this be right be taken away from the Jews through an offensive war by the Arabs?

Ned

Last edited by Ned on 09-05-2002 at 03:17

	09-05-2002 01:49									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Panag, Thanks much. I understand the situation a lot better. From an "historical" perspective, I don't understand how Israeli's moving onto land they own or purchase in the West Bank can be a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Prior to 1948, Jews could live anywhere in Palestine. How could this be right be taken away from the Jews through an offensive war by the Arabs? Ned Ned

hi ,

now we are talking !!!

of course this is not "news" , it does not bring a million people in front of the tv , its not important for some reporters , ..........

and about 1948 , 5 countries declared war , a minute before independece was declared , ............

Israel is a "young" nation but its had only brief moments of peace , .....
and to say Jews are at the base of that , would be a lie , a big one , ........

have a nice day