22-04-2002 22:52									#1
	Why does Israel keep putting settlers in the occupied territories? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just wondering.

	22-04-2002 22:55									#2
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Some think that the West Bank is part of Israel, the country given to the jews by God. For most, like Sharon, it's more of an act to dominate and defend their own territory.

	22-04-2002 23:00									#3
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So the Palestinians have another right to fight besides occupation: the invasion of settlers into their land. Right?

	22-04-2002 23:07									#4
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The UN says that colonization of occupied ground is illegal. Thus the settlements are illegal if one thinks that the west bank and the gaza-strip is occupied. That' it is, is a pretty common viewpoint. If it gives the people that lives there some special "rights" against those settlements is a more open question.

	22-04-2002 23:11									#5
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Well what the UN says is one thing and most of the time is right.

But I'm more interested in pure logic.

You have a peoples (the Pals) who are under occupation.
And on top of that they see their masters (the Israelis) invading their land and setting up settlements to occupy and to drive them out of there even further.

	22-04-2002 23:14									#6
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One problem is that they can't agree over who where there first...

	22-04-2002 23:15									#7
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But you have settlements right there in Palestinian land. And they create more.

	22-04-2002 23:18									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin The UN says that colonization of occupied ground is illegal. Thus the settlements are illegal if one thinks that the west bank and the gaza-strip is occupied. That' it is, is a pretty common viewpoint. If it gives the people that lives there some special "rights" against those settlements is a more open question.

In fact the UN has specifically stated that Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is illegal.

	22-04-2002 23:22									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin One problem is that they can't agree over who where there first...

In 1900 there were less than 100,000 Jews in "Israel". The British, who controlled the area began setting aside parts of the best land to settle Jews. Afrter WWII Europe put all its weight behind a Jewish "homeland". Thus, the ethnic cleansing began and the Pals were pushed farther and farther back off from the best land. Now, Israel has 78% of the land and still wants more.

	22-04-2002 23:24									#10
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Because all of it is Israel's. The Muslims stole it from them in the 8th and 9th centuries and the Jews have been persecuted world-wide ever since.

	22-04-2002 23:27									#11
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Q: Why does Israel keep putting settlers in the occupied territories?

A: Cause they need Lebensraum.

	22-04-2002 23:28									#12
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quote: Why does Israel keep putting settlers in the occupied territories?

Masochists.

	22-04-2002 23:30									#13
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Well what the UN says is one thing and most of the time is right.

If that's the case, you can NEVER support the Pals, they rejected the UN from the start.

quote: But I'm more interested in pure logic.

Your logic is flawed.
Leagally, all the land belongs to Israel, because the Pals denied the partition plan.

quote: You have a peoples (the Pals) who are under occupation.

They started a genocidal war and lost.
What happens next goes under the catigory "just desserts".

quote: And on top of that they see their masters (the Israelis) invading their land and setting up settlements to occupy and to drive them out of there even further.

It isn't their land.

	22-04-2002 23:37									#14
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You see paikitis with intolerant and narrowminded people like Chris 62, and in the mid-east those are 13 on a dozen, it's quite futile to have a constructive discussion and solve any problems at all. That's one good reason why they build settlements.

	22-04-2002 23:38									#15
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When the settlement started, in the days of Begin, people settled there from the same reason people settled in remote towns in Israel in the early 20th century. Knowing that any place with Jews will eventually belong to Israel.

Since then, a lot has changed. Because the goverment endorsed the settlements, sponsoring them, reducing housing costs etc, many people moved there because they wanted improved quality of life. According to the settlers, only a few percents of them are "life quality settlers" and according to the left wingers only one third of the settlers are ideological ones.

The lebensraum claim is correct only when you talk about those individuals who decide to settle in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip because of ideology, and the Israeli goverments until Rabin.
Since Israel officially offered, whether it's fair or not, 95%+ of the territory in exchange for nothing, the Lebensraum claim, if you talk about Israel as a whole, is wrong wrong wrong.

	22-04-2002 23:42									#16
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Cuz they were programmed by the same guy who wrote the Civ III AI.

	22-04-2002 23:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin You see paikitis with intolerant and narrowminded people like Chris 62, and in the mid-east those are 13 on a dozen, it's quite futile to have a constructive discussion and solve any problems at all. That's one good reason why they build settlements.

Your even more foolish then I thought.

I 'm talking strick legality.

Not what I would do, you pinhead!

	22-04-2002 23:44									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Drefsab Cuz they were programmed by the same guy who wrote the Civ III AI.

No, it's not that bad.

	22-04-2002 23:45									#19
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Chris,
I don't agree with you.

I believe that there is a situation that is as it is.

There is the west bank. There are borders. Upon these we start building Palestine.

Autonomy, Independence.
This requires that Israel stops settlers from going there and that it recognizes the state of Palestine.

I have the feeling that if Palestinians didn't fight, there would not be any Palestine at all considering Israel's expansionist plans.

	22-04-2002 23:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I 'm talking strick legality.

Isn't it a bit illogical to defend settlement that are declared illegal 'casue they are not illegal acording to the people that build them? As for the pals refusing the UN, that's not a reason for denying the same rights as other, legaly speaking. And legaly speaking I hardly think that "just desserts" is accepted by many courts on this planet. Maybe on yours...

	22-04-2002 23:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I have the feeling that if Palestinians didn't fight, there would not be any Palestine at all considering Israel's expansionist plans.

Hmmmm... then why have they turned down EVERY offer of land for peace... Because they always claim it's not enough. Hmmmm...
And you say that Israel is expansionist

	22-04-2002 23:55									#22
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Chris, I don't agree with you. I believe that there is a situation that is as it is.

The first problem that must be dealt with is finding a Pal group that Israel is willing to deal with.
Arafat is unacceptable to them based on past actions.

quote: There is the west bank. There are borders. Upon these we start building Palestine.

Insisting that ALL settlements of Israel be dismantled is unrealistic, the Israelis won't go for it, a better solution needs to be found.
People need to forget the 67 border, it's based on the 47 Partion plan that was never accepted.
What is needed is a plan that recognizes who is living where now, not 30 or 50 years ago.

quote: Autonomy, Independence. This requires that Israel stops settlers from going there and that it recognizes the state of Palestine.

The Israelis need to see compromise from the Islamic side, an end to the calls for genocide, anti-Israeli propaganda, an end to terrorism and bombings, and this must come FIRST or there will be no agreement.

quote: I have the feeling that if Palestinians didn't fight, there would not be any Palestine at all considering Israel's expansionist plans.

If they hadn't fought in 48, they would be celibrating their 54th year of independance with Israel.
They caused this, not the other way around.
They have to stop fighting.

	22-04-2002 23:59									#23
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The pre-'67 border is not based upon the '47 Partition Plan, it is based on the '48 wars of conquest by Israel and the Arab nations. Now, let's have a look at some evidence, to show how massively unfair the '47 partition plan was to the Arabs.

Palestine Maps 1937-1948

	23-04-2002 00:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Isn't it a bit illogical to defend settlement that are declared illegal 'casue they are not illegal acording to the people that build them? As for the pals refusing the UN, that's not a reason for denying the same rights as other, legaly speaking. And legaly speaking I hardly think that "just desserts" is accepted by many courts on this planet. Maybe on yours...

Your trying to argue in a vacum, son.

You made up your mind, convicted the Israelis, and went on from there.

Look at the facts dispationatly.

The Pals rejected the UN partion plan, instead embarked on a genocidal war in 48.
In places like Haifa, the Jewish mayor BEGGED the Pals to stay after they lost, they refused, saying they would be back with an invading army and would have it ALL.

The Pal's militancy and terrorism has caused them to be ejected from several Muslim states in the past.

So we can say, from the planet I'm on, earth, the biggest stumbling block to peace is the pals.

How it is for you on Mars may be another story.

	23-04-2002 00:03									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The 67 border is not based upon the 47 Partition Plan, it is based on the 48 wars of conquest by Israel and the Arab nations.

The only "conquest" was an attempt by the Arab states to bury Israel, or do you deny this peace of history?

There is less then 10% deviation from the UN partion plan and the 67 border.

You will have to do way better Che, your argueing the wrong side if you support the Pals.

THEY started it.

	23-04-2002 00:07									#26
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...and the Israelis will finish it.

	23-04-2002 00:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 You made up your mind, convicted the Israelis, and went on from there. Look at the facts dispationatly.

And why should one not say the same about you? You clearly, a lot more clearly than me as I see it (even if I'm hardly the best judge), has judged the pals. Your just making pathetic arguments about who did that and so on. That most of the people in the area wasn't born in 1948 totally passes you by as you judge a entire people. And it's not like there's other facts (as you call your selection of historical interpetations) that says quite the opposite. I've had this conversation a million times over and it's unproductive and narrow-minded and is a part of the entire problem.

I don't take sides against pals or jews. I take sides against goverments. What you're up to is something else.

Mars is pretty nice this time of the year...

	23-04-2002 00:12									#28
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I hope to see a Pal state, but it must be based on today's reality, not what was 50+ years ago.

Accusations of "conquest" by israel are a joke, they fought a desperate war in 48, were heavily outnumbered, and they won.

Large chunks of the Pal population fled wityh their invader friends when their murder plan failed, it's just to damn bad for them, isn't it?

	23-04-2002 00:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The Pals rejected the UN partion plan,

As they had a right to do. Furthermore, the US originally abstained from the drawing up of the Partition Plan because we knew it would lead to civil war.

quote: instead embarked on a genocidal war in 48.

You have your years wrong. The Palestinian-Jewish Civil War began in Novermber, 1947, and lasted until March of 1948 (with the exception of Jerusalem, where Palestinians fought to hold on). After that, the Israelis began occupying as much of Palestine as they could grab before the Brits left. The "genocidal" war, so-called because one commander of an insignificant military force with no support called for throwing the Jewis into the sea, was really a land grab by all countries. Everyone wanted a piee of Palestine, only Israel and Jordan were strong enough to hold on. (Egypt only got a piece because the UN insisted Israel withdraw from part of the Gaza area).

All told, there were no good guys in that war (but there were lots of innocents), and the Jews weren't fighting to save their lives. There were massacres on both sides, expulsions on both sides, etc.

quote: In places like Haifa, the Jewish mayor BEGGED the Pals to stay after they lost, they refused, saying they would be back with an invading army and would have it ALL.

Some Pals left like that. Most left because of the fighting. After the fighting was over, the remainder, in an ironic twist of rhetoric, were herded into the sea where they were rescued by Egyptian fishing boats. In Dier Yassin, they were simply massacred. In Lydah, they were marched through the desert with no food or water and expleed from the Israeli conquered territory. Many died on that march.

The major cause of refugees during the war was the fighting, pure and simple. Neither calls for Arabs leaving and waiting for the reconquest of Israel nor the news of Israel massacres of Arabs were equal to the fear of being killed between two clashing armies.

	23-04-2002 00:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Accusations of "conquest" by israel are a joke, they fought a desperate war in 48, were heavily outnumbered, and they won.

Israeli troops outnumbered Arab troops at all points during the '48 wars. Stop buying Ben Guion's rhetorica about 600,000 versus 23 million. At the begin of the wars, Israel barely outnumbered the Arabs, by the end they had more than doulbe the Arab troops. The ratio should be even greater, considering that except where Israel attacked the Jordanians, Iraqis, and Lebanese, they didn't have to fight those three countries.

And of course, you ignore that fact that Egypt was also fighting Jordan.