27-04-2002 03:07									#121
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Governments can't legislate morality, meaning that a government can't force adults to believe things that they don't want to believe in. What a government can do is teach that morality to children. It is part of the socialization process. If a government says certain things are wrong and certain things are right, and they incorporate those values into things like patriotism and political culture. Governments then teach children using those notions (through government sponsered television shows/commercials, publications, etc.) Those children will then be more inclined to believe in those government sponsored morals. It is the parent's responsibility to tell the child if they should accept those government morals, but the beliefs of society (transmitted through the media) are highly influential. Many children/adolescents challange their parents beliefs when pop culture tells them that their parent's beliefs are wrong. Children tend to internalize popular beliefs. Therefore, through the education and socialization of children, a government can legislate morals.

This is unjust as well. No one should be indoctrinated, this goes against the principles of democracy and free will our country is supposedly founded on. Hitler sought to indoctrinate the German population to believe his racist Nazi ideology. I'm hoping we can be in favor of something a bit more principled. Children's thoughts are their own just as much as adults. The government has no business in forcing them to be 'educated' according to government standards.

	27-04-2002 08:44									#122
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Ozzy:

So what prevents children growing up and becoming murderors and rapists?


and GP... it wasnt even a leather jacket. it was a nike jacket.


thanks

	27-04-2002 08:57									#123
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Every child will be subjected from endoctrinment, as soon as he's educated. Even parents endoctrine their children as soon as they're teaching them values (and values are a necessity to live in a society).
I know I grew in a country where the State clearly endoctrined me, with esp. history course, but I'm pretty sure every scool, whether public or private, endoctrines.

Not that I want schools to teach a rigid moral. But sure, a basic moral pretty everyone agrees on (killing is bad etc.)

	27-04-2002 09:04									#124
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The problem is you people assume that parents exist to teach chilren. The fact is, very few people have real parents these days. We need another tool to teach our children...

	27-04-2002 09:34									#125
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The problem is you seem to think it cool to take the name of an evil war criminal, kiddo. If you dream of ever being taken seriously, even for a fraction of a second, change your handle.

	27-04-2002 10:03									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer So what prevents children growing up and becoming murderors and rapists?

War is rape, pillage, and murder, sanctioned by the government. However violent individual people may choose to become, they will never be as dangerous to the human race as a body of people dedicated to slaughter.

We are better off with no indoctrination, than risking the wrong type. Or better yet, we are best off if the indoctrination is one of individual responsibility and liberty.

	27-04-2002 10:15									#127
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There is no such thing as no indoctrination. Do you, or do you intend to, teach that to your children? Then you are indoctrinating them into your belief system.

BTW. I like your belief system. Only problem is we'll have to wait for Star Trek technology for it to be practical. In the mean time, a whole lot of individuals running around with little cohesion is not gonna last very long in this world of finite resources and might makes right.

	27-04-2002 13:19									#128
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quote: Notyoueither: Did someone say he was stupid?

I read the insightful

quote: At least Albert Speer has a reputation as being the "Good Nazi" or at least the most talented in science and engineering, not some rabble rouser like Hitler or Goebbels nor a simple warrior like Himmler or Goering. Albert Speer was the intelligent, not as known Nazi.

in very much the way to say that all other nazi were stupid.

	27-04-2002 13:48									#129
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If the Nazi's lost the war because they were stupid, it diminishes the Allied victory. In my recollection though, Germany took on the greatest powers on Earth and almost won. What does this say about their intelligence?

Ned

	27-04-2002 13:57									#130
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Not much. Hitler's battle plans were, in the main, disastrous. The two qualities of his that were beneficial to the German cause were brazenness at a time his adversaries didn't want to fight and utter ruthlessness.

	27-04-2002 14:19									#131
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Ned and KH, Hitler was an experienced demagogue, not an experienced General (there were quite some veterans of WWI who despised Hitler because he never went high in military ranks). The war started to turn when Hitler dismissed the leading Generals and tried to do it himself ... which was before Stalingrad.
In 1939, Germany was prepared to fight all European countries, except Sovjet Union and England. About England I'm not absolutely sure.

	27-04-2002 14:28									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer The problem is you people assume that parents exist to teach chilren. The fact is, very few people have real parents these days. We need another tool to teach our children...

Well you're the biggest tool I've encountered in recent years.

And what's that cobblers about not having real parents? I'd take that as an admission that you were grown in a vat, but in your case it's far more likely that you were found under a rock. You'd be amazed at the numbers of kids still managing to grow up in the presence of two parents.

One other thing. Albert Speer is not acceptable as a handle. You got away with it because the admin here didn't know who he was. Reconcile your claim that he was a good guy with his use of industrial slavery.

	27-04-2002 18:44									#133
	War criminal Got spare money?

Albert Speer was an admitted war criminal. However, as many Civ3 players advocate razing cities and whipping and starving people to death, I'm not sure it is an inappropriate moniker.

I'm curious. Albert Speer, why did you choose such a nick?



BRITANNICA

German architect who was Adolf Hitler's chief architect (1933–45) and minister for armaments and war production (1942–45).

Speer studied at the technical schools in Karlsruhe, Munich, and Berlin, and acquired an architectural license in 1927. After hearing Hitler speak at a Berlin rally in late 1930, he enthusiastically joined the Nazi Party (January 1931) and so impressed the Führer by his efficiency and talent that, soon after Hitler became chancellor, Speer became his personal architect. He was rewarded with many important commissions, including grandiose plans to rebuild the whole of Berlin (never accomplished) and the design of the parade grounds, searchlights, and banners of the spectacular Nürnberg party congress of 1934, filmed by Leni Riefenstahl in Triumph of the Will.

In 1942 Speer became minister of armaments and munitions, a title enlarged the following year to minister of armaments and war production, when he was charged not only with armaments production, transportation, and placement but also with final authority over raw materials and industrial production. With this authority, Speer expanded a system of conscript and slave labour, supplied primarily from concentration camps, that maintained production of war material for Nazi Germany.

Speer confessed his guilt at the Nürnberg trials in 1945–46 and served a 20-year sentence at Spandau prison in West Berlin. Following his release in 1966 he had a career as a writer. His published works include Erinnerungen (1969; Inside the Third Reich, 1970), Span dauer Tagebücher (1975; Spandau: The Secret Diaries, 1976), and Der Sklavenstaat (1981; Infiltrator, 1981).

	27-04-2002 18:45									#134
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Oh Zach, I warn you. don't go there

	27-04-2002 22:36									#135
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I can hardly believe being in charge of war production per se is can be a war crime. We saw in the movie, Shindler's list, how one Nazi did his best to save the Jewish slave labor that worked in his factories.

Speer, to be convicted, must have been a ruthless killer as well. Does anyone know exactly what he did? The Britannica article does not say enough to make a true distinction between Shindler and Speer.

Albert Speer - Why don't you change you moniker to Shindler?

Ned

	27-04-2002 22:41									#136
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Eichmann 'only' came up with scheduling for certain trains...

As soon as it is a very high position, you are to blame. It's simple, Schindler was just a minor factory owner. And BTW, there are many of those that exploited their workers in a very Nazi way. But because they were in minor positions, they never got blamed. Look into any major German company that has been there for a long time, you'll find accusations of delightfully exploiting slave workers anywhere... Siemens, Mannesmann, BASF (formerly IG Farben, they came zup with ZyklonB) and so on...

One of the loudest accusations coming out of the East was that many former Nazis (politicans, industrials) were not put into jail but reset to power and money in the west after the war. Although many were sued in a rather unfair victor court (or maybe not, it's not hte point now), many others had a chance to re-arise totally unharmed. However, if you were in a high position under Addi, you were basically screwed. Think Hess.

	27-04-2002 23:54									#137
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Ecthelion, What you are saying is very hard to accept. Speer is condemned and Shindler praised but they did the same thing, the only difference being that Speer had higher rank?

There has to be something more.

Ned

	28-04-2002 00:11									#138
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Speer was ultimately responsible for the use of slave labour which in many cases led to death.

Schindler was in a position to exploit that slave labour, yet went out of his way at great personal risk to save those he was responsible for.

Can you see the difference?

	28-04-2002 00:17									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I can hardly believe being in charge of war production per se is can be a war crime. We saw in the movie, Shindler's list, how one Nazi did his best to save the Jewish slave labor that worked in his factories. Speer, to be convicted, must have been a ruthless killer as well. Does anyone know exactly what he did? The Britannica article does not say enough to make a true distinction between Shindler and Speer. Albert Speer - Why don't you change you moniker to Shindler? Ned

Because he's a Nazi sympathiser.

Read about the Nuremburg trials- focussing on conditions in factories such as Krups. A typical example would see Jewish slaves (or other nationalities) put into hard industrial labour under often hazardous conditions on an average diet of 300 calories per day. At gunpoint, enforced with brutal beatings. Under such conditions, average life expectancy was around 2-3 months, and thousands died. This was deliberate.

Is that enough of a ruthless killer? 20 years was a joke.

	28-04-2002 00:27									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Ecthelion, What you are saying is very hard to accept. Speer is condemned and Shindler praised but they did the same thing, the only difference being that Speer had higher rank? There has to be something more. Ned

Yes yes yes... Schindler doesn't fit into that 'low rank' league... I was talking about industrials that, as I said, cheerfully welcomed slave workers, read BFB's post for the bloody details... Schindler was one of the few who actually wanted to do soemthing... but even if he had been evil he wouldn't have been sentenced to anything, since he was just a 'small fish' t osay the least.. .luckily enough he did do something (or at least that character represents those who actually did something) and saved some...

Now Speer is high rank and mass destruciton in one person, so 20 years are indeed odd... What was always beyond me is how Hess could get such a high sentence... he was high rank, but he opposed war plans and in '42 or so flew to the UK, got arrested there without ever being heard about his intents (or being taken seriously for that matter)... later on got a sentence that made him look like the inventor of all KZs...