25-04-2002 02:48									#1
	Am I Apolyton's Only Conservative? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well? This was noted over a year ago during a drug legalization debate in which one forumer remarked that a year before that the topic would've sparked a huge debate but now it was just Albert Speer against all. This was a year ago and the ever-leftist trend of former conservative apolytoners is continuing.

Imran Siddiqui, Connorkimbro, Black Dragon, Dave Floyd...

Where's the old conservatism? I'm not saying you should be Maestrobtos and Jeszenkas but why are you all libertarians now? Where's your conservative idealism? You don't care about the improvement of society?


thanks

(I wouldnt be surprised if Lincoln has turned libertarian or centrist too... and Giancarlo is an athiest? What's Apolyton coming too?)

	25-04-2002 02:49									#2
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YOU ARE NOT CONSERVATIVE! GO PESTER THE LIBERALS.

	25-04-2002 02:49									#3
	Suffering from ads?

You've got a new buddy in Nationalist....

	25-04-2002 02:50									#4
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Albert Speer is such a great conservative that he thinks the government has a role in making society better.

Way to go, Albert!

	25-04-2002 02:53									#5
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If you want conservativism, you can always go to Newsmax .

	25-04-2002 02:54									#6
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quote: Originally posted by LightEning If you want conservativism, you can always go to Newsmax .

That's like saying if you want socialism, go to China...

	25-04-2002 02:58									#7
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Newsmax is too extreme for my tastes... I just want to kno why the Apolyton Old Guard has turned libertarian...

	25-04-2002 03:00									#8
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Im more moderate. But to the right of the center.

	25-04-2002 03:02									#9
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quote: I just want to kno why the Apolyton Old Guard has turned libertarian...

We got smarter .

	25-04-2002 03:04									#10
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This is avery poor troll. Please desist from posting here and giving it the oxygen of publicity.

There is a point for anyone who can identify the source of the quote and the context it was made in.

	25-04-2002 03:05									#11
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I'm not sure where I'd place my political leanings:

I'm definitely right-wing economically and mostly politically, but I'm liberal when it comes to my social policies in that I support gay marriage, I'm pro-choice, that sort of thing.

I also support public education and a decent public healthcare system, as long there is an optional private system (like Germany's setup).

So I go under the conservative banner these days, but I really hate the religious-conservatives or people blinded by their conservatism.

	25-04-2002 03:08									#12
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Imran:

And little Albie Speer still is dumb and misguided?

	25-04-2002 03:09									#13
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I hope to be leftist for all conservatives and conservative for all leftists

P.S. Albert, sorry if this is your real name, but I feel uncomfortable with you user name. This isn't conservative in my eyes.

	25-04-2002 03:13									#14
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quote: And little Albie Speer still is dumb and misguided?

Now you got it!

	25-04-2002 03:19									#15
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"In humour, we find Truth"

Centrist/pragmatic as always.

Giancarlo was always an atheist. Imran is a Republican booster, but has always admitted 'libertarian leanings'.

Wraith, Floyd die-hard Libertarians.

The most traditionally conservative conservative in terms of social values who isn't a boob is Lincoln.

Intelligent, and yet a social conservative....terrorifying indeed.

	25-04-2002 03:46									#16
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Been libertarian since I started reading P.J. O'Rourke. A good three years I suppose.

Conservatism, as it was known in 1980's America, is dying. It lacks credibility and vigor. It's not all wrong, it just needs to be changed.

	25-04-2002 04:49									#17
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Depends on what you mean by conservative.

I believe that the U.S. governmental structure is the best ever developed, a perfected Roman Empire.

I believe in Free Markets - but I also believe in the Anti-trust laws to muzzle abusers like Gates.

I believe the family unit is the best for society and should be promoted and protected.

I believe that the level of civilization can be measured by the level of equality it gives women.

I believe that "all men are created equal." (From the Declaration of Independence.) This thought leads to equal civil rights for all, no slavery, no abortion and no death penalty.

I believe in freedom of expression and its corollary, the right to obtain information.

I believe in freedom of religion from state control. I also believe that government should not be anti-religious. The U.S. government today is anti-religious in many overt and subtle ways.

When it comes to vice: gambling, prostitution, drugs and the like, I am of two minds. Mostly, I believe that the government should regulate rather than criminalize these. Governments have never been able to stamp out vice, but the attempt itself has lead to a criminal element in society that supplies vice to those who want it. The criminal element is arguably more destructive to society than the vice itself.

I believe laws, particularly tax laws, should not favor one group over another depending on status. I am particularly offended by progressive taxes.

I am strongly against Socialism. However, I do believe in the social safety-net, but not as a way of life.

I don’t know what the above adds up to. I suspect that most Americans subscribe to most of the above.

Ned

	25-04-2002 04:51									#18
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quote: Am I Apolyton's Only Conservative?

Hopefully.

	25-04-2002 05:15									#19
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You are not Apolyton's only conservative; just Apolyton's only reactionary.

If you support a party that was last in power 50 years ago, that makes you pretty old-guard.

As for my politics, I am very libertarian on some issues, for instance I believe that personal freedom and rights should be superior over all other considerations in law, and I believe that trade between countries should be completely unregulated. However I support a social safety net because sometimes people find themselves at the bottom of society and it isn't their fault.

	25-04-2002 05:23									#20
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I am a conservative, as was noted a while ago.
However, my beliefs differ from the Republicans in substantial ways. I am a protectionist/ state capitalist economically. I am a conservative ( more appropriately, a traditionalist) socially. However, A.S., I have read some of your threads, and I don't think that we agree on too many things.

	25-04-2002 05:28									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am a conservative but not a Republican. There is a big difference. Conservatism means essentially to conserve that which works instead of throwing it out the window and subjecting societies to endless experimentation. If something is not broken then there is no need to fix it. Of course there is a lot of things broken now but we ought to conserve that which works and study history for some ideas on what has been tried and what has failed.

	25-04-2002 05:31									#22
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What am I? Chopped liver?

	25-04-2002 06:11									#23
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For the most part, I try to respect moderate conservatives who are not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semetic, or worshipful of the upper class.

The less EXTREME conservatives we have, the better society is. And the less EXTREME liberals we have, the better society is.

I'm a moderate liberal BTW.

	25-04-2002 06:26									#24
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As the Chairman of the Apolyton Evil Capitalist Conservative Party, I'm mildly insulted by what you're saying.

	25-04-2002 06:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun For the most part, I try to respect moderate conservatives who are not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semetic, or worshipful of the upper class. The less EXTREME conservatives we have, the better society is. And the less EXTREME liberals we have, the better society is. I'm a moderate liberal BTW.

Well said! Extremism isn't always bad. The Founding Father's were the original extremists. It just depends on which horse you're backing.

	25-04-2002 07:05									#26
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Fun:

quote: For the most part, I try to respect moderate conservatives who are not racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-Semetic, or worshipful of the upper class.

Not racist... not sexist (I have an extremely high opinion of women)... homophobic in that I feel extreme, in your face gays ruin it for all homosexuals and note that I have defended homosexuality on apolyton... not anti-semetic... DEFINENTLY not worshipful of the damn immoral bourgeious.


thanks

	25-04-2002 07:07									#27
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Political categories are always misleading. I will definitley admit to having strong libertarian leanings on many issues, and I do not believe the state exists to be our father, but if I had to label myself I would still call myself a conservative.

	25-04-2002 07:35									#28
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Again, unless we all agree to what these terms mean, we are not communicating. I suspect people who call themselves liberals or conservative will have quite a few things they will agree on leaving only a few areas of disagreement. However, the areas of disagreement will vary from person to person. Typically, one of the two will be defending the status quo - a conservative stance - while the other will be advocating change - a liberal stance. Am I wrong?

For example, person A may believe in a highly progressive tax structure. Person B may not. Which is the "conservative" given that today’s' tax structures are generally progressive and person B is asking for change?

In another example, suppose that a fundamentalist believes that women should be denied the right to vote. Since most women today have the right to vote, the people who want to maintain the right to vote for women are conservatives.

As to U.S. parties, I believe the Republican Party is generally comprised of people who share a common economic philosophy that can be expressed as pro-business. Social issues are less important. In contrast, the Democratic Party is generally anti-business (read, Socialist) and believes in the importance of social issues.

Other U.S. parties, I believe, are extreme versions of either the Republican or Democratic Parties.

However, recent presidents of both parties have "moved to the center." Clinton was a strong advocate of free trade. Bush, in contrast, imposed steel tariffs. If this were the "only" issue dividing Bush and Clinton, I would vote for Clinton.

Ned

	25-04-2002 07:48									#29
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You should read my theory of political parties...it's in another thread where I argued that Right or Left is meaningless, the important distinction is only how secure a party's grip on power is.

The four way axis is pretty good for individuals though.

Social Values: Individual Decides--->Society/Government 'best interests'
Economic: Individual fends for self ----> Society/Government 'helps/interferes'

I think the big problem that people who would otherwise be Libertarians in the USA have is that they think they can't be a patriot if they're a libertarian....of course, most Libs think THEY are the real patriots...

	25-04-2002 07:57									#30
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For somewhat more conservative views , check out the Civ3 strategy forum. A lot of posters think using the whip and razing cities are progressive social policies with which to build a civilization.