25-04-2002 20:52									#31
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia But if youre already a priest then you cant get married?

But you can be married and become a priest, which is what I said.

	25-04-2002 20:57									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Being gay isn't a mental disorder. Pedophilia is and I've seen no scientific research that states that it is caused by abstenence.

Says who? I wouldnt say either is a "mental disorder". But if one is labeled that way, so then should the other. If not, why then?

I havent seen any scientific evidence either. Point? Wheres the research that disproves the idea that abstinence does cause pedophilia? Oh wait, theres none of that either.

Looks like a simple matter in difference of opinion.

Arguing about stats that don't exist is futile, so lets drop it.

	25-04-2002 20:59									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

New thread idea, based on you guys.

	25-04-2002 21:00									#34
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc But you can be married and become a priest, which is what I said.

So if youre a priest and you want to get married, all you have to do is stop being a priest for a little bit, get married, and rejoin the priesthood! Problem solved!

	25-04-2002 21:05									#35
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ming The legislation that effectively ended optional celibacy for priests came from the Second Lateran Council under Pope Innocent II in 1139.

I think this was in reaction to the growing practice of bishorics becoming, of all things, hereditary!

Ned

	25-04-2002 21:12									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It was also meant to create an Elite level of priesthood... by disinfranchising the married priests. It was also meant to continue the land grab the Church was making in Europe... priests lands then fell to the Church...

	25-04-2002 21:13									#37
	Remove this text

The best laid plans of mice and monks, huh?

	25-04-2002 21:17									#38
	Support Apolyton

I fart in their general direction.

-Arrian

	25-04-2002 21:38									#39
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Being gay isn't a mental disorder. Pedophilia is

Why?
How is pedophilia any more of a "mental disorder" than being straight or liking the color blue?

	25-04-2002 21:39									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

IIRC the reason that celibacy was made the rule for priests was that in the 11th and 12th centuries many priest were "circuit riders" and had several parishes at which they preached. A number of these fellows also had multiple wives, which created a problem for the church. The issue of what to do with the widows and orphans of priests who died was a major issue, especially for the bigamists. The solution was celibacy, a state particularily favored by the followers of St. Augustine.

	25-04-2002 21:40									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why? How is pedophilia any more of a "mental disorder" than being straight or liking the color blue?

Because if actively practiced it's harmful.

	25-04-2002 21:43									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

Is liking caffiene a mental disorder?

	25-04-2002 21:44									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

Thinking that Ramo just posted is a mental disorder.

	25-04-2002 21:48									#44
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why?

Because all of the research I have seen supports the conclusion that a general type of condition, of which pedophilia is a subtype, that is characterized by recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges,or behaviors that generally involve nonhuman subjects,the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner,or children or other nonconsenting persons is different from being straight or liking the color blue. If you can point me to a reliable source that says otherwise, please do so.

	25-04-2002 21:57									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't know Dino......pretty weak argument.

	25-04-2002 21:57									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It's a strange behavioral type, sure, but how is it fundamentally different from liking the color blue, in terms of mental order?

What, exactly, do you consider a mental disorder?

	25-04-2002 22:01									#47
	Inflate your Upload Space

Celibacy and marriage rules go back much further than the 11th and 12th centuries. Rather, to the 4th century and earlier.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c..._chisto_en.html

	25-04-2002 22:07									#48
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Perhaps the clergy needs a new frame of refernce on the subject. Now where can i find a biker gang willing to rape priests?

	25-04-2002 22:14									#49
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think the problem beings not with celiby, but rather, with a total lack of qualified mental screening process for would be Priests.

AFAIK, pediophiles can be identifed through proper screening, and the chruch doesn't do this.

This latest ruling is just another example of the "do nothing" strategy of the catholic church.

Ramo, is it acceptable for someone to blow your head open with a shotgun?
That's the same kind of argument your attempting to make here.
There is a limit to how far personal freedom goes, it ends when you infringe on others, like children, for example.

	25-04-2002 22:15									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS Celibacy and marriage rules go back much further than the 11th and 12th centuries. Rather, to the 4th century and earlier. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c..._chisto_en.html

Yeah, but Dan, those "rules" were long "forgotten" by the height of the Middle Ages. It is interesting to see the same canon against priest cohabitating with women other than their mothers, first seen at the Council of Nicea, being repeated at an ecumenical council at the turn of the first millenium.

Ned

	25-04-2002 22:17									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Chris, you're attacking a straw man; I agree that people who act on pedophilia should be prosecuted (since children are incapable of giving their consent).

The debate is not over the legality of such actions, but whether pedophilia constitutes a mental disorder.

Last edited by Ramo on 25-04-2002 at 22:23

	25-04-2002 22:31									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ming It was also meant to create an Elite level of priesthood... by disinfranchising the married priests. It was also meant to continue the land grab the Church was making in Europe... priests lands then fell to the Church...

There was also, at that time, a lot of interference of the Holy Roman Empire in matters of the Church, including the appointment of bishops, archbishops and the Pope. Obviously, the ecumenical councils at the time were dealing with many major problems and scandals partially caused by having married priests and bishops.

Ned

	25-04-2002 22:49									#53
	Remove this text

According to the DSM-IV, pedophilia is a mental disorder; homosexuality or liking the color blue are not. You wanna argue with the experts?

	25-04-2002 22:49									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The debate is not over the legality of such actions, but whether pedophilia constitutes a mental disorder.

It is according to the American Psychiatric Association.

	25-04-2002 22:50									#55
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Nice crosspost.

	25-04-2002 22:57									#56
	Tired of ads?

I'm trying to figure out why.

What exactly is a mental disorder?

	25-04-2002 22:58									#57
	Remove this text

If its mental, and its bad, its a mental disorder.

	25-04-2002 22:58									#58
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ramo It's a strange behavioral type, sure, but how is it fundamentally different from liking the color blue, in terms of mental order?

Behavioral health care professionals call disorders, illnesses or diseases that have prominent emotional, behavioral, and psychological symptoms mental disorders. These include substance use disorders and disorders associated with physical changes or illnesses, many of which directly affect the brain. For most of these disorders, however, physical causes have not been demonstrated or are poorly understood, even though biological treatments (e.g. drugs) may be effective in treating them. They may be distinguished from and classified separately from the personality disorders, or the term may be used in such a way as to include personality disorders

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/d...s/mntldsrdr.htm

BTW to give this debate some semblance of meaning, why don't you tell me why the behavior type I described in an earlier post is not fundamentally different from liking the color blue?

	25-04-2002 23:01									#59
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc But you can be married and become a priest, which is what I said.

Inded ther is the possiblility of a married person becoming a priest, and it occurs rarely, but when someone does so HE IS STILL REQUIRED TO BECOME CELIBATE.

	25-04-2002 23:04									#60
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: BTW to give this debate some semblance of meaning, why don't you tell me why the behavior type I described in an earlier post is not fundamentally different from liking the color blue?

You're making the assertion; you back it up. I can't prove the non-existence of something.

quote: mental illness n : the psychological state of someone who has emotional or behavioral problems serious enough to require psychiatric intervention The DSM-IV-TR also looks to be like a good resource to constitute what does and does not constitute a mental disorder.

So, if I don't like a behavior, it's a mental disorder? That's an odd definition.