25-04-2002 23:47									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Pedophelia ... [is] not [a] mental disorders.

Why not?

Sorry about editing your post but we aren't talking about and other fetish other than paraphilia at this point and I didn't want to broaden the issue more than needed.

	25-04-2002 23:49									#92
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why not?

Why don't you explain how it is.

	25-04-2002 23:52									#93
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I think Dr Strangelove gave you your answer Ramo.

	25-04-2002 23:53									#94
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quote: The problem with pedophillia is that the object of the pedophile's desire will definately suffer if he acts upon his desires.

Does the APA consider greed a mental disorder?

	25-04-2002 23:53									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Why don't you explain how it is.

I'd really like someone to provide evidence that calls the American Psychiatric Association's classification into question because it would give us a meaningful basis upon which to debate.

	25-04-2002 23:54									#96
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quote: Originally posted by drake A pedophile isnt a danger at all if he can control his impulses. Fundamentally, it is ones actions that must determine "mental illness" not ones thoughts.

Thoughts can be disordered too. Schizophrenia is first and foremost a "thought disorder".

	25-04-2002 23:56									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Does the APA consider greed a mental disorder?

Do you know someone who doesn't have some greed?

	25-04-2002 23:57									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Does the APA consider greed a mental disorder?

Greed? No, it doesn't. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is included however.

	25-04-2002 23:59									#99
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Greed? No, it doesn't. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is included however.

Don't forget Kleptomania and Antisocial Sociopathic Personality Disorder.

	26-04-2002 00:00									#100
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Greed isn't a factor in kleptomania, IIRC.

	26-04-2002 00:06									#101
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quote: Do you know someone who doesn't have some greed?

So if everyone but pedophiles miraculously get killed, pedophilia would no longer be a mental disorder?

quote: Narcissistic Personality Disorder is included however.

I don't see narcissism as equivalent to greed. Narcissism is closer to being egotistical.

	26-04-2002 00:09									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Greed isn't a factor in kleptomania, IIRC.

Picky, picky, picky.

	26-04-2002 00:09									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Narcissism is closer to being egotistical.

Being an egoist and being greedy are both different forms of the samething: selfishness.

	26-04-2002 00:10									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'd really like someone to provide evidence that calls the American Psychiatric Association's classification into question because it would give us a meaningful basis upon which to debate.

So, I take it you can't explain why it is?

Or is that you are just incapable of having an original thought?




As for the 'American Psychiatric Association', or Strangelove's post -

quote: It's a disorder because we say so... such a person would probably suffer because of his abnormal desires... There are a lot of mentally ill peopl who function at near normal levels... People with anxiety disorders often live normal lives, even depressed people may live near normal lives...

Seems to me that they are concerned about little more then dictating what is to be 'normal' or accepted and what is to be 'abnormal' or deviant.

Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about what they have to say.

	26-04-2002 00:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Being an egoist and being greedy are both different forms of the samething: selfishness.

Kapitaliesm.

	26-04-2002 00:11									#106
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How is being an egoist being selfish? Egoism (and narcissism) is simply an inflated admiration of oneself.

	26-04-2002 00:15									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo How is being an egoist being selfish?

From American Heritage Dictionary:

quote: e·go·tist n.- A selfish, self-centered person

I am sorry for misspelling the word earlier.

	26-04-2002 00:21									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo So if everyone but pedophiles miraculously get killed, pedophilia would no longer be a mental disorder?

Well, obviously yes.

Are there some instances in which psychiatry uses socially acceptible behavioral norms as a factor in determining what behaviors are disordered and what are not? Yes.

Let me point a few things out to you: If you're a pedophile and manage to keep it to yourself you're not going to wind up in treatment unless you ask for it, are you? If you ask for treatment your pedophilia is obviously a disorder, because it's bothering you enough to cause you to shell out HUGE amounts of money for treatment. ( You're not going to send the bills for treatment of pedophilia to your insurance comany are you? )

	26-04-2002 00:32									#109
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Kleptomania, schizphrenia, celibacy, priesthood, pedophiles, homosexuals, property inheritance patterns, and statistics!!!

Ah yes --- welcome to another Off-Topic thread that has an entire crock pot of sub-topics.



But seriously --- celibacy in the Catholic clergy is not pratical. And it has no real moral purpose either.

	26-04-2002 01:20									#110
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Once I heard a "scientific" definition of perversion. It's open to critics, but it obeys to the laws of a definition :

"A perversion is a sexual attraction to an individual you can't reproduce with."

This definition doesn't consider "perversion" negative, only non-reproductive. With this definition, homosexuality, pedophila, but also gerontophilia are considered perversions. Even "doing" (errm, how can I get past the vocabulary interdiction ?) a pregnant woman can be considered as a perversion. Only straight sex with someone able to reproduce is not.

This definition, of course, has nothing to do with morals. It just gives a reference.

	26-04-2002 01:22									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Once I heard a "scientific" definition of perversion. It's open to critics, but it obeys to the laws of a definition : "A perversion is a sexual attraction to an individual you can't reproduce with." This definition doesn't consider "perversion" negative, only non-reproductive. With this definition, homosexuality, pedophila, but also gerontophilia are considered perversions. Even "doing" (errm, how can I get past the vocabulary interdiction ?) a pregnant woman can be considered as a perversion. Only straight sex with someone able to reproduce is not. This definition, of course, has nothing to do with morals. It just gives a reference.

It does not really matter that the intelligentia does not see perversion as a negative connotation. Society does see it as something negative or bad.

I would have to disagree with classifying sexual behavior between two mutually consenting adults as perverted, just because they are of the same gender.

	26-04-2002 01:37									#112
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Mr.Fun : I think what he tries to say is : "hey , I really discourage it , and I think we should educate people not to do this, but If you do this anyway, I am ok with that. " . like smoking.

do you have a problem with this statement?

	26-04-2002 01:39									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Inded ther is the possiblility of a married person becoming a priest, and it occurs rarely, but when someone does so HE IS STILL REQUIRED TO BECOME CELIBATE.

Not the case. There currently are some married priests in the Catholic Church. These priests were Episcopalians ministers who converted to become Roman Catholics, or Orthodox priests who converted to become Byzantine Catholics. In each case they were married before they converted to Catholicism, and they are not required to be celibate. (Hard to see how their wives would approve.)

	26-04-2002 02:13									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld As for the 'American Psychiatric Association', or Strangelove's post - Seems to me that they are concerned about little more then dictating what is to be 'normal' or accepted and what is to be 'abnormal' or deviant. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about what they have to say.

Seems to me that they are concerned about little more than helping people deal with their problems, in order to live a full life.

If people have the motivation you describe, there are far more efficient ways of achieving that goal than becoming a psychiatrist.

	26-04-2002 02:53									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Once I heard a "scientific" definition of perversion. It's open to critics, but it obeys to the laws of a definition : "A perversion is a sexual attraction to an individual you can't reproduce with." This definition doesn't consider "perversion" negative, only non-reproductive. With this definition, homosexuality, pedophila, but also gerontophilia are considered perversions. Even "doing" (errm, how can I get past the vocabulary interdiction ?) a pregnant woman can be considered as a perversion. Only straight sex with someone able to reproduce is not. This definition, of course, has nothing to do with morals. It just gives a reference.

Whose definition was this?

	26-04-2002 02:55									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Not the case. There currently are some married priests in the Catholic Church. These priests were Episcopalians ministers who converted to become Roman Catholics, or Orthodox priests who converted to become Byzantine Catholics. In each case they were married before they converted to Catholicism, and they are not required to be celibate. (Hard to see how their wives would approve.)

Yes tere have been a few, but from what I understand the Catholic church wasn't happy with the results and there won't be any more.

	26-04-2002 03:08									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith There currently are some married priests in the Catholic Church. These priests were Episcopalians ministers who converted to become Roman Catholics, or Orthodox priests who converted to become Byzantine Catholics. In each case they were married before they converted to Catholicism, and they are not required to be celibate.

I was thinking of the few that were ordained directly into Catholosism after being married, most of them who had already become celibate for personal or medical reasons, I had forgotten about the conversions.

	26-04-2002 03:59									#118
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Although this may sound stupid, but aren't celibacy and marriage two different topics?

Ned

	26-04-2002 04:01									#119
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While I admit to being disappointed by this ruling, we will have to wait for the US council of Catholic Bishops meeting in Dallas in June. There is some chance they might adopt a zero tolerance policy.

	26-04-2002 04:56									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Although this may sound stupid, but aren't celibacy and marriage two different topics?

They are pretty much intertwined to the catholic church.