26-04-2002 06:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What do you know about the American working class? Tell me how they have benefitted. Enlighten me. Look at per capita incomes... look at the computer age. Working in factories is a much more efficient job now. Productivity of the American worker is the highest in the world, and THAT rather than wages determines where jobs are located. You are spewing old rhetoric that died out with Perot, and thankfully so.

What I don't understand is, given the American worker's high productivity, wouldn't we have the comparative advantage over other countries in industry over the long run? Once infrastructure is set up, wouldn't our efficient practices produce better products?

	26-04-2002 06:52									#32
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I have to say thumbs down to Ronnie...

	26-04-2002 06:52									#33
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quote: *Points out to Immy that Ronnie was one of the biggest protectionists in recent history.*

That is easy to say compared to Clinton and the present. But compared to the 70s (Nixon, Ford, Carter), Ronny was a virtual Adam Smith.

quote: I'm more in favor of Capitalism in the form somewhat like the "Asian Tigers", omething like patriotic Capitalism. Promote competition within the nation. I'm not just talking about steel, I'm talking about textiles and other industries as well. I don't believe in a service based economy.

Then you don't believe in economic growth and progress. The final stage of economic progress is a predominatly service based economy. Industrial based economies are industrializing countries... like the US before WW2.

Yes, promote competition inside the state, but for true capitalism, trade is the engine of growth, and domestic trade isn't enough. There is a reason no one votes for Pat Buchanan.

	26-04-2002 06:56									#34
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quote: What I don't understand is, given the American worker's high productivity, wouldn't we have the comparative advantage over other countries in industry over the long run? Once infrastructure is set up, wouldn't our efficient practices produce better products?

Productivity isn't same for every industry across the board! And some industries, like steel, the productivity of the worker might not be that important with increased mechanization (which would have led to a loss of jobs for all those steel workers in the US eventually anyway). And protectionist tariffs dissaude improving technology. Look at Detroit in the late 70s and early 80s. Tariffs prevented the car makers from improving efficiency, and quickly Japanese cars took over because of their more efficient techniques, which led to more productivity.

Industry isn't one block, different states are better or worse in different industries, and more or less productive in some industries. Every country has their own comparative advantage in some industry.

	26-04-2002 06:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then you don't believe in economic growth and progress. The final stage of economic progress is a predominatly service based economy.

I don't think that that will hold true. Its just a thoery right now, and I believe that it will be proven wrong. I think that a country without basic industry takes away its foundations. In a time of crises, that country is at the mercy of others. I aslos think that industrialized countries can retain their industry. There will always be a demand for steel and textiles. Why couldn't we make them here? Why do we have to become 'post industrial'. If third world countries had to comply to the same standards of American industry, American industry would have the comparative advantage.

quote: There is a reason no one votes for Pat Buchanan.

The reason for this is that in the American system, there is no incentive to vote for the third part unless it has an overwhelming amout of support. (Republican in 1860) If we had a European type system, I bet that Buchanan would get far more votes, probably like Le Pen in France.

	26-04-2002 07:01									#36
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Anyone that chummy with Jerry Falwell and the like can't be good for America.

	26-04-2002 07:05									#37
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quote: [SIZE=1] Industry isn't one block, different states are better or worse in different industries, and more or less productive in some industries. Every country has their own comparative advantage in some industry.

The basis of my argument centers around the fact thatmost of our products come from third world companies whose advantage comes from exploitation. I think that this is wrong for many reasons. Why wouldn't the U.S. have an advantage in textiles over ,say Nicauragua, if we played by the same rules? We have better technology and more efficient practices.

	26-04-2002 07:06									#38
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quote: I don't think that that will hold true. Its just a thoery right now, and I believe that it will be proven wrong. I think that a country without basic industry takes away its foundations. In a time of crises, that country is at the mercy of others. I aslos think that industrialized countries can retain their industry. There will always be a demand for steel and textiles. Why couldn't we make them here? Why do we have to become 'post industrial'. If third world countries had to comply to the same standards of American industry, American industry would have the comparative advantage.

Yes, just like evolution is a theory

There has been no capitalist state on earth that has deviated from that path.

Every country has been at the mercy of others in its past. No nation has all they need to be self-sufficient. Trade is required for worldwide prosperity and growth.

Why should we make steel and textiles here when other states can make more of it and cheaper. The consumer would pay higher prices because of less output and worse quality because we feel we have to produce everything.

And no... if 3rd world nations had to comply to American standards, there would STILL be industries where they have comparative advantage. There would be certain industries where they could create better than us.

Remember, after WW2, Korea was a '3rd world country' and they seemed to develop a very quick comparative advantage in technology.

	26-04-2002 07:07									#39
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quote: The basis of my argument centers around the fact thatmost of our products come from third world companies whose advantage comes from exploitation.

Europeans could say the same things about American industry. After all, we 'exploit' our workers more than they do across the pond.

	26-04-2002 07:14									#40
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quote: There has been no capitalist state on earth that has deviated from that path.

How many advanced industrialized countries have their been before the present day? This is a theory, and I for one am not convinced that a service economy is stable enough to last.

quote: Why should we make steel and textiles here when other states can make more of it and cheaper. The consumer would pay higher prices because of less output and worse quality because we feel we have to produce everything.

Why would American products necessarily have to be of lower quality or more expensive? How much more expensive would Nikes be if they were made in the U.S.?

quote: And no... if 3rd world nations had to comply to American standards, there would STILL be industries where they have comparative advantage. There would be certain industries where they could create better than us.

If that would be the case, then we should trade for that product. However, I don't think that their advantage would be as great on a level playing field as it would be in current situations.

	26-04-2002 07:21									#41
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quote: How many advanced industrialized countries have their been before the present day? This is a theory, and I for one am not convinced that a service economy is stable enough to last.

Wonderful, have you advanced your theory with Nobel Prize winning economists?

quote: Why would American products necessarily have to be of lower quality or more expensive? How much more expensive would Nikes be if they were made in the U.S.?

If Nikes were made in the US... a $100 shoe would be easily $300, I'm convinced... or to keep the same price, much lower quality.

quote: If that would be the case, then we should trade for that product. However, I don't think that their advantage would be as great on a level playing field as it would be in current situations.

There has never been a level playing field and there never will be until there is a one world government. We have less pro-labor and environment legislation that the Europeans. Our taxes are much less. So are we stealing jobs from Europe, and think it should stop?

	26-04-2002 07:31									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wonderful, have you advanced your theory with Nobel Prize winning economists?

LOL. I know that my theories wouldn't fly with Nobel Prize winning economists. I'm just observing and making predictions. I get some advice from my roomate who has a degree in International Trade theory, but thats all. Maybe he should be typing these replies.

quote: If Nikes were made in the US... a $100 shoe would be easily $300, I'm convinced... or to keep the same price, much lower quality.

I think that they could be the same quality for the same price. Compare how much it costs to make the shoe with how much the shoe sells for. Nike would make less of a profit. Even if they raised prices of their shoes, the average wage would raise from the higher quality jobs, making them more affordable. Introduce price ceilings to prevent Nike from raising shoe prices higher than the average rise in wages. Higher relative wages would allow for more sales. Nike would still profit.

quote: We have less pro-labor and environment legislation that the Europeans. Our taxes are much less. So are we stealing jobs from Europe, and think it should stop?

Do their labor laws apply to the guest workers?

	26-04-2002 07:42									#43
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quote: I think that they could be the same quality for the same price.

They'd disagree.

quote: Even if they raised prices of their shoes, the average wage would raise from the higher quality jobs, making them more affordable.

The wage would only rise for the workers of Nike, not the economy as a whole. Perhaps there could be some spillover (through more purchases), but not that much.

quote: Introduce price ceilings to prevent Nike from raising shoe prices higher than the average rise in wages.

And you are for capitalism

quote: Nike would still profit.

They'd profit more having their jobs in other countries and sending it over... The goals of capitalism is to make more profit.

quote: Do their labor laws apply to the guest workers?

Guest workers to where?

	26-04-2002 07:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui They'd disagree.

I know they would. Admitting otherwise would jeopordize products.

quote: The wage would only rise for the workers of Nike, not the economy as a whole. Perhaps there could be some spillover (through more purchases), but not that much.

I'm not talking about just Nike in a vaccuum, but say the textile industry as a whole. Large group of people with higher wages. Prices would rise, but so would wages. Make sure that prices don't rise more quickly than wages

quote: you are for capitalism

Yes, but I'm for the working class and the country first. I believe in competition, but I also believe that a company should consider (or in reality forced to consider) more than just profit.

quote: They'd profit more having their jobs in other countries and sending it over... The goals of capitalism is to make more profit.

I know that Nike would benefit more from having oversea production, but would the country as a whole? I don't think so. Ths is where our fundamental difference over the importance of certain aspects of capitalism comes into play.

quote: guest workers to where?

The Turkish guest workers that they have come into their countries to work for lower wages and benefits. For example, German standards apply to German citizens, but do they apply for Turks who are Turkish citizens but work in Germany?

	26-04-2002 08:53									#45
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quote: I'm not talking about just Nike in a vaccuum, but say the textile industry as a whole. Large group of people with higher wages. Prices would rise, but so would wages. Make sure that prices don't rise more quickly than wages

How do you force them to stay?

And it would have the effect of keeping the poor nations poor. Sweatshops, for all their ills, help countries grow economically.

quote: I know that Nike would benefit more from having oversea production, but would the country as a whole? I don't think so. Ths is where our fundamental difference over the importance of certain aspects of capitalism comes into play.

Nike isn't beholden to one country. And yes Americans (consumers) would benefit from other countries growing economically.

quote: The Turkish guest workers that they have come into their countries to work for lower wages and benefits. For example, German standards apply to German citizens, but do they apply for Turks who are Turkish citizens but work in Germany?

Yes, I believe they do.

	26-04-2002 08:59									#46
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Very bad for US and world, especially US with all his useless military spending.

Although his tax breaks were a step in the right direction, I'll give him that - still a liar though.

	26-04-2002 09:01									#47
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The best orator's I've ever heard are, in order, Hitler, Kennedy, Reagan and Blair.

However, the most moving speech I've ever listened to is Bush's speech to Congress the week after 9/11.

Ned

	26-04-2002 09:03									#48
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quote: How do you force them to stay?

I would make it more expensive for companies to export goods to the U.S. than it would be to make them in the U.S. I would do that through the most hated of all creations: the TARIFF!!! I know that taiffs have had a spotted history, but I think that they can be good.

quote: And it would have the effect of keeping the poor nations poor. Sweatshops, for all their ills, help countries grow economically.

Could those countries use their sweatshops to develop products for consumption in their own countries?

quote: Nike isn't beholden to one country.

I would argue that it is an American company. It is based in America.

quote: And yes Americans (consumers) would benefit from other countries growing economically.

Yes, but I don't agree with the exploitation of their people to such a degree for us to get slightly cheaper shoes.

I don't think that we are going to agree on these topics.

	26-04-2002 09:04									#49
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"Good for America & World"... now if only he could have developed a better banana...

End of the cold war anyone? With the White Hats winning it?

"We begin bombing in 10 minutes..." Oh, was I on? Yep. Pretty damn good orator too.

	26-04-2002 09:10									#50
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quote: I would make it more expensive for companies to export goods to the U.S. than it would be to make them in the U.S. I would do that through the most hated of all creations: the TARIFF!!! I know that taiffs have had a spotted history, but I think that they can be good.

By messing up supply and demand? By creating artifical equilibrium (well it would really be an equilibrium) and making American consumers suffer? Sorry, the US is a consumer state.

quote: Could those countries use their sweatshops to develop products for consumption in their own countries?

You need initial capital for the creation of industries. American companies have more to spare... and since we've made them get with the free-trade deal, American companies have been able to easily go there. We can't raise tariffs and make third world nations not be able to.

quote: I would argue that it is an American company. It is based in America.

Multi-National Corporation means that it isn't. And they would be subject to rules from Europe, Canada, Russia, etc. It is based in America because it is profitable for them to do so. You put repressive regulations on them and they move right to Canada or Europe.

quote: Yes, but I don't agree with the exploitation of their people to such a degree for us to get slightly cheaper shoes.

They are getting paid much more than their fellow countrymen would. They are living the good life in their state.

quote: I don't think that we are going to agree on these topics.

Never... I believe industrialized nations should be free-traders. England's unilateral dropping of tarriffs in the 1600s catapulted them to the #1 country in the world.

	26-04-2002 09:19									#51
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I actually think that nationalist does have a small point. I believe that there are a few industries that do deserve protection due to the national security interests that they serve. Steel is one of them.

	26-04-2002 09:22									#52
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Does this mean Americans are finally admitting they aren't part of the world?

	26-04-2002 09:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Does this mean Americans are finally admitting they aren't part of the world?

You mean that these rumors of there being a whole world out there isn't part of some government scare campaign?!?!

	26-04-2002 09:29									#54
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THE GOOD:
1) Created more millionaires, faster, than at any time in U.S. history.

2) Re-armed the U.S. military.

3) Correctly labled the Soviet Union as an "Evil Empire" (although he later apologized to them for using this term.)

4) Restored a grandeur and can-do attitude to the White House.

5) Bombed Libya & put an end to their international terrorism.


THE BAD:
1) Greatest drop in the percentage of the middle class since the Great Depression.

2) Greatest one-day percentage drop in the stock market since the Great Depression.

3) Before Reagan there were a few bums and hoboes, but his economic and social polices gave rise to the term "homeless" with children making up most of the homeless.

4) Created more than twice public debt than all of the other U.S. Presidents up to that time combined! We're still paying of that debt today.

5) Launched a sneak attack on the nation of Greneda, which was the moral equivant of the Japanese sneak attack at Pearl Harbor.

6) Lied about trading guns for hostages as Col. Oliver North was subverting the Constitution in the basement of the White House.

7) Deregulated the airline industry, which led to numerous airline crashes do to shoddy maintenance.

8) Deregulated the banks & S&Ls leading to the S&L crisis. The losses from the Lincoln Savings fiasco alone exceeded the combined losses from all the bank robberies in U.S. history.

9) Came up with his looney star wars defense program--which squandered billions, which did not and could not work, and which, if it had been impliemented would have been part of a first-strike capibility which would have destablized the world.


THE UGLY:
1) Took advice from his wife who in turn was taking advice from an astrologer.

2) Claimed pollution was caused by trees.

3) Saw white males as the greatest victims of discrimination.

	26-04-2002 09:31									#55
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quote: 4) Created more than twice public debt than all of the other U.S. Presidents up to that time combined! We're still paying of that debt today.

Winning a War, hot or cold, takes money.

	26-04-2002 09:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I actually think that nationalist does have a small point. I believe that there are a few industries that do deserve protection due to the national security interests that they serve. Steel is one of them.

Yeah, national security is one of my main concerns. Bethleham steel ( the naiton's 3rd largest steel maker that recently filed chapter 11) supplied most of the military's steel. That steel will now come from foreign countries.

	26-04-2002 09:43									#57
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Winning a War, hot or cold, takes money.

True, but does it make sense when you're increasing spending to slash your income by giving staggering tax cuts to the ultra-wealthy?

	26-04-2002 09:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler True, but does it make sense when you're increasing spending to slash your income by giving staggering tax cuts to the ultra-wealthy?

LOL... That's Reaganomics!

	26-04-2002 09:53									#59
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quote: True, but does it make sense when you're increasing spending to slash your income by giving staggering tax cuts to the ultra-wealthy?

Also had to drag the economy out of recession at the same time.

	26-04-2002 09:53									#60
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Yes, but you did not list the accomplishment under the positives.

Many Americans may find many faults with R Raygun. To some people outside the US (not all) he led the charge that ended the Cold War and the Soviet Union. Hense a pretty good guy on the whole from my perspective.

I'm surprised none of the Americans brought this up, I thought it would be seen as good by you too.