26-04-2002 07:51									#61
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I don't think that a man should have an easy way out just because the women doesn't want to have an abortion.

He made the decision to twinkle his twinkie; wether he wanted the baby or not, that is the risk you take with twinkling.


But there does need to be a double standard, since men and women ARE DIFFERENT, and do play different (though an overall sharing of) responsibilities in birthing and raising children.

	26-04-2002 07:53									#62
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The man has the same "OUT" with abortion. If she doesn't want it, it's highly unlikely that he wants it either. Do you REALLY think that the pittance I send my ex each month makes her live in comfort?

Get a clue.

And until then PLEASE do not get a woman pregnant.

	26-04-2002 07:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse [QUOTE]Having a different genetic code doesn't mean crap; it's neither a necessary nor a sufficient requirement for individuality.

If different genetic structure does not make a different human being, then what does?

quote: I judge things on what they are, not what they might become. Anything else is a silly system. A fertilised ova does not a human being make.

"Might" has nothing to do with it. A fetus WILL become a human. There is no question to that. And yes, a fertilized ova does make a human being. That's what they developed from. That response sounds like a justification rather than an answer.

	26-04-2002 07:59									#64
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Uhm, I don't think that has anything to do with the biological definition of a human either. Cojoined twins often are not "individual", as they often need to share organs.

Conjoined twins are messy. There is obviously one human being. The question is: are there two? My answer is yes, given that they gain individuality through behavioural differences; one acts differently than the other. If they both acted as one then they would be one.

November, is a tissue sample of a dead person an individual human being? No, despite it having a unique genetic code. It is not viable; it does not live or breathe on its own. Neither can a fetus, before a certain point. Functionally, it is part of the mother's body, and must remain so in order to grow. It gains its humanity when it gains viability.

quote: I think you seriously need to get a woman's perspective on this. There is no way a woman is going to get pregnant just so she can get child support

Osweld, she has the choice to either carry the child and raise it with subsidies from the father, or to abort it. Why does she get to make the choice for the father?

quote: And I don't see how this relates to what I said, anyways

Then you're being dense.

	26-04-2002 08:03									#65
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse November, is a tissue sample of a dead person an individual human being? No, despite it having a unique genetic code. It is not viable; it does not live or breathe on its own. Neither can a fetus, before a certain point. Functionally, it is part of the mother's body, and must remain so in order to grow. It gains its humanity when it gains viability.

A dead person won't develop into an individual human being. It already was. However, a fetus will become a human being, and in a very short amount of time. Chopping up a dead body won't destroy a life, because it is already dead. Chopping up a fetus destroys a certainty of human life. See the difference?

	26-04-2002 08:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist If different genetic structure does not make a different human being, then what does?

Functional/behavioural independence. Somebody's already pointed out (previous thread) that some organs (stomach lining) in your body actually have a distinct genetic code. They're still part of you.

quote: "Might" has nothing to do with it. A fetus WILL become a human. There is no question to that. And yes, a fertilized ova does make a human being. That's what they developed from. That response sounds like a justification rather than an answer.

a) Might has everything to do with it. There are no guarantees that a fertilised ovum will develop into a human being.

b) Are spermatozoa in the vaginal cavity also destined to become human beings? Should we protect their "right" to fertilise whatever ova is there? Potential means squat. It either is or isn't a human being. "Will become if things go its way and we choose not to interfere" is worthless.

	26-04-2002 08:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist A dead person won't develop into an individual human being. It already was. However, a fetus will become a human being, and in a very short amount of time. Chopping up a dead body won't destroy a life, because it is already dead. Chopping up a fetus destroys a certainty of human life. See the difference?

a) A dead tissue sample will develop into a human being if you chose to extract a nucleus from a cell, inject it into an unfertilised ovum, then provide a nourishing environment (womb) and wait 9 months.

b) Potential still means squat. If I've already rejected it as a standard of judgment, then it does no good for you to continue to harp on it

c) The final three sentences are simply restating a position I disagree with, and are thus immaterial

	26-04-2002 08:21									#68
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse A dead tissue sample will develop into a human being if you chose to extract a nucleus from a cell, inject it into an unfertilised ovum, then provide a nourishing environment (womb) and wait 9 months.

Pregnancy is a natural process. What you described isn't, and besides that, it isn't true. You can't really compare the two.

quote: Potential still means squat. If I've already rejected it as a standard of judgment, then it does no good for you to continue to harp on it

It doesn't matter if you reject the argument. Its not really potential, its certainty. A fetus develops into a person without deviation unless disrupted by genetic flaw or outside action. Do you judge everything by only what exists at the present, without regards to the future? No wonder you don't believe that people have to deal with the consequences of sex.

	26-04-2002 08:22									#69
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It's wonderful to listen to you rehash this AGAIN, but what does it have to do with child support?

	26-04-2002 08:22									#70
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quote: No wonder you don't believe that people have to deal with the consequences of sex.

Well women don't if they don't feel like it.

	26-04-2002 08:22									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski It's wonderful to listen to you rehash this AGAIN, but what does it have to do with child support?

Nothing . I've already said that I think that the guy should have to pay child support.

	26-04-2002 08:24									#72
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quote: The man has the same "OUT" with abortion. If she doesn't want it, it's highly unlikely that he wants it either.

So what she wants is what he wants now too? hehehe

	26-04-2002 08:25									#73
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quote: Well women don't if they don't feel like it.

They should have to as well. I am against abortion because I see it as the ultimate shirking of responsibility on both the man and woman's part.

	26-04-2002 08:29									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The man has the same "OUT" with abortion. If she doesn't want it, it's highly unlikely that he wants it either. So what she wants is what he wants now too? hehehe

Most likely. Anybody who doesn't want to pay child support would be happy to have that out, correct?

Also, pay child support is called taking responsibilty for your actions. You make it seem like it's a harsh penalty. SHE is the one who is single and trying to rasie the child. SHE is also the one who's life will be changed if she has an abortion. The man's life won't be changed in either case.

Except a couple less six packs a month. Which will help in keeping him from repeating the process.

	26-04-2002 08:31									#75
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quote: They should have to as well. I am against abortion because I see it as the ultimate shirking of responsibility on both the man and woman's part.

That is consistant then. But there are a lot of people who believe that abortion should be legal and men should pay child support.

	26-04-2002 08:31									#76
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Pregnancy is a natural process. What you described isn't, and besides that, it isn't true. You can't really compare the two

"Natural"? I hate that word. Ever since the secularisation of the State people have tried to reformulate their moral beliefs around some fraudulent view of the world as "naturally" following a certain path which human beings should attempt to avoid disturbing. Gaia has replaced God, but it's no less theological in substance.

quote: It doesn't matter if you reject the argument. Its not really potential, its certainty. A fetus develops into a person without deviation unless disrupted by genetic flaw or outside action. Do you judge everything by only what exists at the present, without regards to the future? No wonder you don't believe that people have to deal with the consequences of sex.

Long blathering post with no substance and an ad hominem attack at the end to top it off.

To reiterate: what will/might happen in the future has no bearing on the humanity of a tissue sample in the present. If you let it grow up then it becomes a human being. If you don't then it doesn't. If I build a computer from raw materials then I have a computer. If I don't build it, then all I have is 20 pounds of copper, oil and sand.

I'll monitor this thread, but it's already beginning to degenerate. If anything particularly interesting pops up then I'll respond.

	26-04-2002 08:32									#77
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KrazyHorse, you are talking about abortion as if it where a casual choice - no more signifigant then putting on a condom.
Like I've already said, you desperately need a woman's perspective on this issue.


Why don't you ask your girlfriend or your mother what they think of this?



And my original question was "I wonder how women think about this attitude of 'who cares if I get a woman pregnant, she can always get an abortion'" I don't see how your smart-ass remarks about women geting pregnant for the child support money relates to that at all.

	26-04-2002 08:33									#78
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quote: Most likely. Anybody who doesn't want to pay child support would be happy to have that out, correct?

Who said the man wouldn't want to pay child support? What if the man is married to the woman? He wants the kid and she doesn't... she can get rid of the kid against his wishes.

quote: Also, pay child support is called taking responsibilty for your actions. You make it seem like it's a harsh penalty. SHE is the one who is single and trying to rasie the child. SHE is also the one who's life will be changed if she has an abortion. The man's life won't be changed in either case.

SHE is the one that decided to have the baby, when the guy didn't. SHE also has the choice to have an abortion.

Man doesn't have a choice after intercourse... SHE does... that is unfair... and violates equal protection under the law.

	26-04-2002 08:34									#79
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse "Natural"? I hate that word. Ever since the secularisation of the State people have tried to reformulate their moral beliefs around some fraudulent view of the world as "naturally" following a certain path which human beings should attempt to avoid disturbing. Gaia has replaced God, but it's no less theological in substance. quote: It doesn't matter if you reject the argument. Its not really potential, its certainty. A fetus develops into a person without deviation unless disrupted by genetic flaw or outside action. Do you judge everything by only what exists at the present, without regards to the future? No wonder you don't believe that people have to deal with the consequences of sex. Long blathering post with no substance and an ad hominem attack at the end to top it off. To reiterate: what will/might happen in the future has no bearing on the humanity of a tissue sample in the present. If you let it grow up then it becomes a human being. If you don't then it doesn't. If I build a computer from raw materials then I have a computer. If I don't build it, then all I have is 20 pounds of copper, oil and sand. I'll monitor this thread, but it's already beginning to degenerate. If anything particularly interesting pops up then I'll respond.

translation: victory

	26-04-2002 08:37									#80
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quote: translation: victory

You remind me of the creationists on Poly .

	26-04-2002 08:39									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: translation: victory You remind me of the creationists on Poly .

It was just a joke. I thought Krazy was getting a little pissed, so I wanted to push his buttons a little. No harm done, no harm meant

	26-04-2002 08:42									#82
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist translation: victory

Ahh. So you follow this philsophy?

	26-04-2002 08:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist It was just a joke. I thought Krazy was getting a little pissed, so I wanted to push his buttons a little. No harm done, no harm meant

Actually, I knew that.

	26-04-2002 08:44									#84
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Ahh. So you follow this philsophy?

lol... I think that I agree with the Resource Consumer guy.

	26-04-2002 08:59									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui SHE is the one that decided to have the baby, when the guy didn't. SHE also has the choice to have an abortion. Man doesn't have a choice after intercourse... SHE does... that is unfair... and violates equal protection under the law.

regardless of the fairness of the issue, this is not an equal protection violation under the US Constitution.

	26-04-2002 09:12									#86
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quote: regardless of the fairness of the issue, this is not an equal protection violation under the US Constitution.

Actually that was my next twist in the argument .

After sex, the woman has a choice to have (and thus support the child) or not. The man does not.

This violates equal protection of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

	26-04-2002 09:20									#87
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So Imran.. do you think that the man should have the ability to over ride the womans choice to abort if HE will take care of the child?

	26-04-2002 09:40									#88
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam So Imran.. do you think that the man should have the ability to over ride the womans choice to abort if HE will take care of the child?

I think so. The baby is as much his as it is her's. If she would abort it, she would be killing a child that would be cared for if born.

	26-04-2002 09:43									#89
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quote: So Imran.. do you think that the man should have the ability to over ride the womans choice to abort if HE will take care of the child?

Yes... if the child can be taken out at that point and survive. The abortion issue is consent. If the woman doesn't want the child to be in her body and use it as an incubator, she has that right.

	26-04-2002 09:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: regardless of the fairness of the issue, this is not an equal protection violation under the US Constitution. Actually that was my next twist in the argument . After sex, the woman has a choice to have (and thus support the child) or not. The man does not. This violates equal protection of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

Before the child comes into existence, the father would not have standing to bring a lawsuit. Once a child comes into being, it is entitled to equal protection, which requires support from both parents, regardless if one doesn't want the child.
The child's rights are always the paramount concern to the court.

There have been numerous cases to support this position: that fathers (and mothers) have to pay support even if the child is unwanted.

check out Wallis v Smith, 22 P.3d 682, a fairly similar case to the one you suggest, (and recent, 2001) where the couple agreed to use birth control, she stopped (without telling him) and became pregnant. He sued for fraud (attempting to avoid his support obligations) and the case was dismissed.