27-04-2002 01:46									#61
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Yes, it does. It makes a lot of difference. Most people want to integrate. So your theory about autonomy and self-government is flawed.

	27-04-2002 01:46									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X The vast majority of people who come to the US want to accept our principles.

How can you possibly know this? The INS obviously dont.

quote: If the INS system were streamlined it would be much easier to process immigrants.

This "streamlining" you speak of would have to be implimented and proven to work before opening our borders to all and sundry. I have serious doubts (from my own experiences with the INS) that this is possible.

quote: Besides, if we allow people to enter the country freely then the INS (or whatever new administration is put in its place) to focus on processing legal immigrants. As it is, too much mony is spent trying to keep people out who only want to work hard and make a better life for themselves and their families.

That is the price you pay for security, and the security aint that good either.

quote: In my opinion, as long as someone is not known to be a violent criminal or belligerent towards the United States or our allies, they should be allowed to enter the country. If they don't fulfill that minor obligation, they should be kept out until such time as they are not seen to be a threat to the people here.

How are you going to know if they are or not? I had to fill out a form before moving to the US asking me if I was a terrorist or not. What a joke.

	27-04-2002 01:50									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Yes, it does. It makes a lot of difference. Most people want to integrate. So your theory about autonomy and self-government is flawed.

If most want to integrate, then thats great, but the fact remains that these groups of non-english speakers are growing. If this trend continues for long enough you will have a country within a country. Not a good thing IMO. I value unity over diversity.

	27-04-2002 01:52									#64
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Cali, the current system doesn't prevent people from doing bad things to us either. The only people it punishes are people who want to come here and work hard.

Just because you've already leapt the hurdle doesn't mean we shouldn't lower it for the people after you.

	27-04-2002 01:53									#65
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins are you a muslim? have you ever been to a mosque? etc

So are they gonna ask that at the border? Oh I can really see the evil terrorist in front of me thinking, 'should I lie the borderguard in the face, never!' As far as I've heard they already asks questions as 'are you planning to assassinate the president of the US of A?' (OK that one seems to have worked well...). Besides that the questions are hardly in line with freedom of religion...

	27-04-2002 01:54									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If most want to integrate, then thats great, but the fact remains that these groups of non-english speakers are growing. If this trend continues for long enough you will have a country within a country. Not a good thing IMO. I value unity over diversity.

That's okay, but if that ever happened, don't blame it on the immigrants.

	27-04-2002 01:56									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin So are they gonna ask that at the border? Oh I can really see the evil terrorist in front of me thinking, 'should I lie the borderguard in the face, never!' As far as I've heard they already asks questions as 'are you planning to assassinate the president of the US of A?' (OK that one seems to have worked well...). Besides that the questions are hardly in line with freedom of religion...

Interpol would need to provide some intelligence, such as mugshots of people entering mosques..

You'd also need a system of positive proof... they'd need to give trusted proof, not just an answer.

	27-04-2002 01:58									#68
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Interpol guarding the all mosques of the world, wow that's a grand project

	27-04-2002 01:59									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Cali, the current system doesn't prevent people from doing bad things to us either.

A good reason to crack down on immigration.

quote: The only people it punishes are people who want to come here and work hard.

Come on Felch X! You dont really believe that do you? What you are effectively saying is that US immigration policy has not kept anyone who would cause harm to the US out of america. 9/11 would have happened a lot sooner if that was true.

quote: Just because you've already leapt the hurdle doesn't mean we shouldn't lower it for the people after you.

The hurdle was too low for me as it is(they gave me a form asking if I was a terrorist ), so why would you want it to be any lower?

	27-04-2002 01:59									#70
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satellite surveillance...

security cameras...

not impossible

its coming to a city near you real soon.

	27-04-2002 02:01									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee That's okay, but if that ever happened, don't blame it on the immigrants.

Well where do non-english speakers come from?

	27-04-2002 02:02									#72
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@ Caligastia

	27-04-2002 02:02									#73
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finland.

	27-04-2002 02:03									#74
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Okay, some really obvious people are kept out, but it clearly hasn't kept us safe. The vast majority of people it keeps out only want to come here and earn a living. The system needs reform to accomodate those people, not persecute them further.

	27-04-2002 02:11									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Okay, some really obvious people are kept out, but it clearly hasn't kept us safe. The vast majority of people it keeps out only want to come here and earn a living.

again...how can you possibly know this? The INS dont.

	27-04-2002 02:13									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well where do non-english speakers come from?

Well, where the problem is? whose the problem is?

	27-04-2002 02:16									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Well, where the problem is? whose the problem is?

The problem is in america, and the problem is america's. I dont blame the immigrants so much as the americans who make it so easy for immigrants to get by without learning english.

	27-04-2002 03:47									#78
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Absolutely. Want to speak Spanish, stay in Spain.
Want to talk French, stay in Canada.

	27-04-2002 03:51									#79
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LTEC,

quote: All the while you gringos expect everyone else in the world to speak english?

No, but considering the influence of English speaking nations it is to their advantage.

quote: Everyone is entitled to their own language. Speaking the countries language where you are at within your limitations is a courtesy.

Which is why I don't support forcing people to learn English - but on the other hand US public schools should be English only, as should notices, documents, etc.

Don't agree? Then I assume you would support removing Spanish as Mexico's official language, no?

Guy,

quote: Wait a minute, Floyd. This might be a bit of a threadjack, but this seems insane, even for you. Spanish shouldn't be taught AT ALL in public schools?

No, I meant that outside of foreign language courses, classes shouldn't be taught in foreign language - ie, History shouldn't be taught in Spanish.

Felch,

quote: David, be wary of urging the government to use coercive methods for a seemingly good end. I think people have the right to live freely wherever they wish, so long as they don't violate the rights of others in doing so.

I agree. I'll support open borders once we also get rid of social welfare and the minimum wage, for starters.

	27-04-2002 03:54									#80
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You don't want to get rid of minimum wage, David.

	27-04-2002 03:55									#81
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Sorry your Jedi Mind Trick is useless against me

Yes, I really do oppose the minimum wage.

	27-04-2002 03:59									#82
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Jedi Mind Trick.

	27-04-2002 04:01									#83
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They don't want to learn English, don't make em. Let them continue to work in menial jobs.

Just amke sure their kids learn English; no sense in punishing them for the sins of their parents.

	27-04-2002 04:07									#84
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Good call David.

	27-04-2002 04:29									#85
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quote: They don't want to learn English, don't make em. Let them continue to work in menial jobs. Just amke sure their kids learn English; no sense in punishing them for the sins of their parents.

Yes, I pretty much agree.

Felch,

quote: Good call David.

You know it.

	27-04-2002 04:47									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu I wonder if we should get in on this... Asher, Tingkai, KH, any thoughts ?

Why would I get into this?

	27-04-2002 05:13									#87
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Hold it...I thought Spanish *was* Texas' official language

Seriously, immigrants to a nation should make an effort to learn the predominant language. By teaching classes in Spanishthroughout the southwest, we run the risk of creating "mini-Quebecs" (except, not quite as obnoxious. It ain't like they're of French stock).

	27-04-2002 05:16									#88
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Lonestar, one of my best friends is from El Paso, and she (she's white, BTW), says it's almost like a "Little Mexico".

	27-04-2002 05:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu I wonder if we should get in on this... Asher, Tingkai, KH, any thoughts ?

I think that governments should cater to the needs/wants of minorities when it's financially reasonable to do so. It's what's averted outright civil war in Canada and inside Quebec for the last 250 years. If the economic stimulus is there to force minorities to learn to speak the dominant language, then they'll change. If it isn't then they won't. You free-marketers should be ashamed of yourselves.

	27-04-2002 05:46									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Hold it...I thought Spanish *was* Texas' official language Seriously, immigrants to a nation should make an effort to learn the predominant language. By teaching classes in Spanishthroughout the southwest, we run the risk of creating "mini-Quebecs" (except, not quite as obnoxious. It ain't like they're of French stock).

Trust me, you don't know what you're talking about. If you think that Canada could/should have forced English on Quebec then you're wacko. At one point 40% of Canada was Francophone.