27-04-2002 06:12									#91
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Trust me, you don't know what you're talking about. If you think that Canada could/should have forced English on Quebec then you're wacko. At one point 40% of Canada was Francophone.

At one point Canada was way the hell more than 40% Francophone.

On the other hand, even when Mexico Ran things in the southwest, there weren't that many Spanish speakers. First the Indians, then the damn Gringos. We shouldn't be creating a large enclave where one didn't exist.

	27-04-2002 06:14									#92
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Quebec shouldn't be forced to speak English.

Conversely, French should never have been a required course in provinces like Alberta in public schools.

	27-04-2002 06:14									#93
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You aren't creating it; you're not deliberately destroying it. I thought you were a free-marketer...

quote: At one point Canada was way the hell more than 40% Francophone

I'm pretty sure not, actually. By the time of the conquest of Quebec, Ontario was already getting pretty big, and the Maritimes were still more developed than Quebec.

	27-04-2002 06:15									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Quebec shouldn't be forced to speak English. Conversely, French should never have been a required course in provinces like Alberta in public schools.

Yes it should, just like English should be a required course in Quebec schools. Lazy Calgarian...

	27-04-2002 06:17									#95
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yes it should, just like English should be a required course in Quebec schools. Lazy Calgarian...

English should not be a required course in Quebec schools either. It's up to the kids/parents if they learn English.

The Francophone population in Alberta is something like 0.5% or less. Why the hell is French a required public school course?!

Mandarin is used FAR more than French in this province, and most schools don't even offer an optional course on it!

	27-04-2002 06:18									#96
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You live in the same country as we do. That still means something, Asher.

	27-04-2002 06:21									#97
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You live in the same country as we do. That still means something, Asher.

That's so incredibly stupid I don't know where to start.
French is absolutely useless anywhere near where we live. No one speaks it, and if they do, they speak English as well. Requiring us to learn French on the basis that some *******s thousands of miles away speak it primarily, and we live in the same country, is simply stupid.

It'd make far more sense to make Mandarin the "required" second language, or even most sense: Not HAVE a required second language.

	27-04-2002 06:24									#98
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Maybe you should teach "American" as a secondary language, Asher.

"It's pronounced zee, not zed, zee!"

	27-04-2002 07:38									#99
	Re: You should speak the language of a country if you live there. Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't want to sound like Pat Buchanan or anything here. Most people know me as a liberal. But there is one issue I can't understand. Last night at work, I was talking to one of the Mexicans who works with me. We got to talking about other people who he came to America with. My friend has citizenship, although he originally came to the US illegally. Although he took it upon himself to learn English, many people he came to America with didn't. Many of these people are still here illegally. I see something wrong with that. If you move to a country and wish to become a member of that society, you should conform, i.e. learn the language. If you don't want to, then get the hell out.

Immigrants should want to assimilate. If they don't, then they have no right to be in the country. Buchnanan says this, and people write him off as a loon. Why?

	27-04-2002 08:07									#100
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Definition of assimilation : losing his culture to entirely live by the new rules. It opposes to the concept of integration : dapting his culture to the new one. Basically, Buchanan is ill-treated because his statement is against the very idea of cultural variety
I absolutely support that the immigrants should learn the language of their new country. Not only for economic / nationalistic reasons, but also for intellectual reasons (OK, bash me as a "leftist intellectual green European" ). I speak 3 languages quite well, and it's great for my own culture, for my own Weltanschauung.

But not all immigrants want to assimilate, and that's normal : when you immigrate, you come from a culture you like, you use a language you like, or at least are used to. It's pretty difficult to live in a different environment, with another culture. So, his individual culture is like a jewel. It's possible to enrich one's culture with another wulture, but it's very hard to impoverish one's culture by discarding the old one.
As a French, I lived in Germany for 1 year, and will continue to do so. There are many things I love in the German culture, and I use them in my everyday life. Also, there are many things I prefer from my original culture, and I won't try hard to look german, while I know I can't (I still 'ave maï 'orribeul French aksent). No reasonable german would like me to assimilate (i.e lose my culture), but I want to integrate myself (i.e enrich my culture)

	27-04-2002 08:26									#101
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Spiffor,

Yeah, I didn't use the best word choice. Integration is what I should have used. I believe in the American melting pot instead of the American Tossed Salad. So does Pat Buchanan. If you don't want to integrate yourself, then don't come to that country.

	27-04-2002 08:31									#102
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Wow, a lot of bullocks concentrated in this thread.

In the US, most second-generation immigrants learn the primary language of the land, same as anywhere else in the world. Multi-lingual schools help immigrants successfully integrate - gee, who would want that to happen in the world's first immigrant-built superpower.

I guess a few of you have forgotten that in the recent past, English was not nearly so predominant in the US. I'm a former midwesterner, before 1900 there were still huge pockets of German-speakers in that part of the country. My grandma (age 98) still has a German accent. In other parts of the country Italian, French, Polish, Czech, Finnish, and many other languages were the local norm. The generations which followed learned English, usually loosing the mother tongue completely by the third generation. Just like what is happening now. I saw this first-hand during 18 years of living in San Francisco, which has many, many immigrants from Mexico, Philippines, China, Vietnam and elsewhere.

Here in Shanghai, I am doing my best to speak, read, and write Mandarin. Not to learn the local tongue is to lock yourself out of many aspects of local life. Chinese people show endless encouragement to any white foreigner who makes the effort.

On the other hand, many Americans here speak NO Chinese at all, not even "hello"! No Chinese are asking for them to be "shipped back" to the US.

	27-04-2002 08:34									#103
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I'm absolutely against the tossed salad image. It's causing hate crimes. These are something specific to the US, but the constant communautarization bring them to Europe, with the recent arsons of Synaguogues for example.
But I'm not really fond of the melting pot image either : I'm afraid it impoverishes culture by stopping them from being original to each other.
I never really think of this, but I'd be oriented towards a model where wultural origins are clear and definite, but chere there is a common language and common values as a bridge between non-exclusive communities (a bit utopic, but I heard that's what they're trying to do in Canada, correct me if I'm wrong)

	27-04-2002 08:35									#104
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And I don't ask for non-English speaking LEGAL immigrants to be deported. Much as I might like it, that would be wrong. I ask for ILLEGALS to be deported, unless we are willing to dispense with social welfare and the minimum wage.

	27-04-2002 08:37									#105
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quote: On the other hand, many Americans here speak NO Chinese at all, not even "hello"! No Chinese are asking for them to be "shipped back" to the US.

They should. If the American wants to live in China, but doesn't feel the need to learn even a little of the language, then he should be sent back. He's disrespecting the Chinese that he is living with, as well as making Americans look like idiots.

	27-04-2002 09:17									#106
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I think it is common sense that you should learn the language of commerce in the country you are in. After all, how would you buy things easily?

I think that in the US, English should be predominent in schools. Multilingual schools have problems, in that the kids learn neither Spanish nor English that well. There should be a greater focus on English... instead of 50-50, it should be 75-25 (English being the 75%).

	27-04-2002 09:34									#107
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I have an inherent problem with paying for the education of US citizens who insist on being taught, at all, in a foreign language.

Actually I have a problem paying for anyone's education, but that is beside the point.

	27-04-2002 09:36									#108
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Why? If a Spanish-speaker pays the same taxes that you do, then why the hell should you be able to tell him that his kids can't be educated in Spanish?

	27-04-2002 09:41									#109
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Simple - it's everyone's taxes that pay for Spanish-only courses, not just Spanish speakers'.

To use a more emotional argument - THIS IS AMERICA FOR CHRISSAKES!

	27-04-2002 09:45									#110
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Right, but their taxes are being used to pay for your (hypothetical) kid's English-only classes too. Not allowing Spanish-only or bilingual (this actually works well, BTW; I was in French immersion from kindergarten to grade 9) schools where the population demands it is silly and smacks of minding other peoples' business...

	27-04-2002 09:46									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's so incredibly stupid I don't know where to start. French is absolutely useless anywhere near where we live. No one speaks it, and if they do, they speak English as well. Requiring us to learn French on the basis that some *******s thousands of miles away speak it primarily, and we live in the same country, is simply stupid.

Pssst. Asher...

Maybe so that the kids may be qualified to hold a job in the federal civil service, or the RCMP, or a senior rank in the military.

If you work for the feds you must be qualified to work anywhere in Canada. Ditto for serving with the RCMP. If you want to hold a senior rank in the military, you must be able to communicate with ALL of your subordinates and superiors.

BTW. There are significant Francophone population centres very much closer to you than Quebec.

	27-04-2002 09:47									#112
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Davis Floyd :
Your "rational" reason comes from the fact you don't like to pay taxes for anyone's education :
"It's not my community, so this community has to pay alone for its education" is like saying :
"It's not me, so this person has to pay alone for his education"

	27-04-2002 10:20									#113
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quote: I ask for ILLEGALS to be deported, unless we are willing to dispense with social welfare and the minimum wage.

How can you possibly re-concile this with anything resembling libertarian principles?

	27-04-2002 16:07									#114
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist They should. If the American wants to live in China, but doesn't feel the need to learn even a little of the language, then he should be sent back. He's disrespecting the Chinese that he is living with, as well as making Americans look like idiots.

Sometimes it is due to disrepect. I know a lot of expats in Hong Kong who refuse to learn Cantonese because they think it is a waste of time or they don't like the language, or because they're lazy.

But there are also expats like myself who find it very difficult to learn a new language.

People seem to have this idea that everyone can become fluent in another language. To me, that's like saying everyone can become a physicist.

I struggle with Cantonese because I can't distinguish between the eight different tones.

But even though I am not fluent in Cantonese, I can still make a contribution to this society. And that is what really should matter.

	27-04-2002 16:12									#115
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One of the logic of native language schools is that if, for example, you send an English-speaking child to a Cantonese school, the child will not only have to struggle with learning what is taught, but also struggle to understand what is being taught.

If you send that child to an English language school, the child will be able to keep pace with the general education while at the same time being taught how to speak Cantonese.

At the end of their education, the child who went to a Cantonese school may be way behind, not because of their intelligence level, but because they had to struggle with Cantonese. The child who went to the English school will reach their highest level of their ability while also becoming fluent in Cantonese.

That's the theory. The reality is that some schools may not produce fully bilingual students.

	27-04-2002 17:03									#116
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I hate to agree with a psychotic right winger like David. But I do. If you want to teach your kids a foreign language, fine. I think its good to be cultured. But.... BUTTTTTTT!!!!... Don't expect the public school system to change from the state's language. If you want to go to a foreign country and live in a neighborhood with other people of your ethnic background, fine. If you want to never speak the language of the country... fine.

The thing that is biting my ass is the outcry for the public schools to teach in any language other than English.

	27-04-2002 17:11									#117
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quote: You should speak the language of a country if you live there.

I completely agree*

*excluding Wales

	27-04-2002 18:54									#118
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The funny thing is that right wingers like David should be in favour of Spanish-language schools in the US. After all, libertarian theory says the government should not tell individuals how to raise their children. So logic suggests the libertarians would say that if public schools exist then parents have the right to send their children to non-English language schools.

	27-04-2002 19:05									#119
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Few people are consistent in their views. Most people just point at an ideology or religion as guideline when it suits them. david is hardly innocent but is not by far the worst example either.

He's usually a consistent *******