26-04-2002 17:22									#1
	You should speak the language of a country if you live there. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't want to sound like Pat Buchanan or anything here. Most people know me as a liberal. But there is one issue I can't understand.
Last night at work, I was talking to one of the Mexicans who works with me. We got to talking about other people who he came to America with. My friend has citizenship, although he originally came to the US illegally. Although he took it upon himself to learn English, many people he came to America with didn't. Many of these people are still here illegally. I see something wrong with that. If you move to a country and wish to become a member of that society, you should conform, i.e. learn the language. If you don't want to, then get the hell out.

My family immigrated to America in 1958. My mom was 9, the oldest of 3. My grandfather and grandmother had nothing but what they could carry. My grandfather was able to settle in Chicago (legally) and start his own shoe repair business. My grandmother and grandfather learned English (although sometimes broken ) and became naturalized. My grandmother became a nurse, and my grandfather ran his shoe repair business until he was 75. He is now 80 years old, and he still works 40 hours a week at another guy's store (a Greek friend of his).

My point being... my family escaped the horrors of war in Europe, and then escaped the horrors of communism. They waited, followed the rules, and came to this country legally. When they got here, they spoke no English, yet learned so they could become productive members of American society. If they could do it, why can't the millions of illegals coming over do it?

Conversely, if I move to France, I'm going to learn French.

	26-04-2002 17:25									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

/shrug/ You live how you can. If you don't need to learn the language, you don't need to. If you do need to and don't learn it, you just can't really blame anyone but yourself.

Although learning languages whether you live overseas or not is good.

	26-04-2002 17:39									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If you plan to stay in a country and raise a family, of course you should learn the language. I've read that a few of the more radical Muslim communties in Britain are actually encouraging their children not to learn English. If they are allowed to live in a country and become citizens, the least they can do is learn the national language.

People that are just over to work for a few years and plan to return to their own countries eventually shouldn't have an obligation to learn the language. It would be of enormous benefit for them to do it though. I spent some time last year working in Rome and made sure I learned enough Italian to get by before I went. You can't go over to another country and expect the locals to speak your langauge just to suit you.

	26-04-2002 17:41									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

One of the things that is bothering me is that many Latinos in California want public schools to only teach Spanish.

	26-04-2002 17:44									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree with you which is pretty easy. I think that it is a joy to be able to learn another language easily(at location). And there are benefits such as understanding movies, books and newspapers. If the language is as useful as english then I wouldn't hesitate for any reason. Tell him that he is a burro!.

	26-04-2002 17:45									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, of course you can't expect the locals to learn your language, and it's kind of a courtesy to learn theirs, but if you can get away with it, why not?

I spent three years in Malaysia. We learned a few words of Malay - otherwise we didn't need anything else - everyone spoke English. I'm not advocating that everyone should just learn English, dammit (I'm not Wiglaf ), but if you can get away with it, there should be no problem. And if there is a problem, it's your own fault.

	26-04-2002 17:46									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It is not as easy as you make it out to be, Sava.

Consider how an illegal lives his life, then imagine how that person could fit learning a language in there somewhere.

	26-04-2002 17:48									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It is not as easy as you make it out to be, Sava. Consider how an illegal lives his life, then imagine how that person could fit learning a language in there somewhere.

I never said it was easy. But my family had to escape a lot worse situations to get here, and they did it.

	26-04-2002 17:50									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If they want to speak only Spanish, the U.S. should accomodate them by shipping them back to Mexico. Unless Spanish is a national language in the U.S.? Even so, they should still have to take English classes.

Here in Ireland, there are two national languages, Irish and English. The amount of people that use Irish as their first langauge is very small, but everyone still has to learn it throughout Primary and Secondary School. So theres no excuse for these demands for exclusively Spanish schools in the U.S.

	26-04-2002 18:06									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I wonder if we should get in on this...
Asher, Tingkai, KH, any thoughts ?

	26-04-2002 18:15									#11
	Got spare money?

They should learn english, for their own sake if nothing else. Getting a decent job without decent english is probably hard. The problem might be that those that don't learn the language works and lives in a ethnic enclave where you don't actually need english to survive.

Learning a language isn't that easy if you're not a kid. If there's no short time advantage to learn english (you can get a job in a segmented part of the labour market, like a sweat shop etc) people will not do it.

But this might just turn out to be a first generation problem. 2nd generation immigrants almost always learn the language. If they don't something is seriously wrong about their surroundings and their possibilities.

	26-04-2002 18:17									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Last year I visited Zimbabawe. The official language there is English, though the local people also speak the local languages Shona and Ndebele. The white population in Zimbabawe didn't bother to learn any of the local languages. Do you think they should, or else why shouldn't they? They are able to help themselves perfectly in Zimbabwe, but so are hispanic immigrants in the USA, who can continue to speak spanish in the neighbourhoods where they live.

	26-04-2002 18:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

But they are white so that's different

	26-04-2002 18:24									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Dr. Stiby Last year I visited Zimbabawe. The official language there is English, though the local people also speak the local languages Shona and Ndebele. The white population in Zimbabawe didn't bother to learn any of the local languages. Do you think they should, or else why shouldn't they? They are able to help themselves perfectly in Zimbabwe, but so are hispanic immigrants in the USA, who can continue to speak spanish in the neighbourhoods where they live.

There are too many flaws in your argument to point out. The biggest one being the comparison between the US and Zimbabwe. The white's in Zimbabwe aren't trying to change the local government in regards to paying for their schooling, etc. The whites have created their own society within Zimbabwe. That situation is entirely different from this one.

	26-04-2002 18:25									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin They should learn english, for their own sake if nothing else. Getting a decent job without decent english is probably hard. The problem might be that those that don't learn the language works and lives in a ethnic enclave where you don't actually need english to survive. Learning a language isn't that easy if you're not a kid. If there's no short time advantage to learn english (you can get a job in a segmented part of the labour market, like a sweat shop etc) people will not do it. But this might just turn out to be a first generation problem. 2nd generation immigrants almost always learn the language. If they don't something is seriously wrong about their surroundings and their possibilities.

My mexican friend says that the 2nd generation is not learning English.

	26-04-2002 18:26									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree totally, Sava. But be advised, you've opened the gates to Hell.

	26-04-2002 18:28									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: That situation is entirely different from this one.

I didn't say the situation is the same. I was just asking whether whites in Zimbabwe should learn the local language. And if not, why not. this is reardless of any other group of people anywhere.

	26-04-2002 18:37									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: The whites have created their own society within Zimbabwe. That situation is entirely different from this one.

And it's different from latin americans in what way?

If the second generation doesn't learn english then you do have a problem that could bring grave political problems in the future.

	26-04-2002 18:53									#19
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I agree totally, Sava. But be advised, you've opened the gates to Hell.

beware the 7th sign....

	26-04-2002 19:08									#20
	Got spare money?

Beware of Ramo. He of the foaming at the mouth fame.

	26-04-2002 19:10									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

I have come to detest Flushing, NY. It feels as if a cancer is creeping up Northern Blvd.

	26-04-2002 20:25									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have no problem with multiligualism. I am not at all offened or made insecure by someone using any language is convinient to them. But is is only common sense to learn the language used by the economicly and politically powerful where you live, if you want to advance more easily in economics and politics. If you can get along without doing so, that is just fine also. Just do not expect the more powerful to adjust to the less powerful's language, except when expedient to them, exception: accomadation should be provided for the most common laguages in elections, madatory government processes, public notices, and the like, as a matter of serving the population.
I am pretty much independent and autonomous in my business and do not seek "customers" from the general public. Anyone who deals with me will have to do it my language, because I am not dependent on anyone who can not do so.

	26-04-2002 20:38									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Flushing, NY. .... Northern Blvd.

Memories.

	26-04-2002 20:46									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

Why shouldn't they speak whatever language they want to speak? Why should you care?

I live in France but my French is very bad. I certainly shouldn't be forced to speak it! I speak English at work and at home, and I get by fine. The amount of French I need for administrative things like fixing insurance etc is very small, and even within my dismal French capabilities. The bank automachines all talk to me in english (after fixing the settings) and all the letters I get from the bank etc are also in English.

I went to a meeting yesterday were I noticed that I was the only native English speaker, but the meeting was conducted in English, and would have been even if I were not present.

Why should I bother learning French?

	26-04-2002 21:09									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Like I stated above Rogan, there's no need for you to learn French if you just plan to live there while you work except for your own convenience, but if you decide to stay there and become a citizen, I would expect you to make an effort to learn the langauge.

Imagine people that turn up in your country, looking to become a citizen and all the benefits that go with it, and then deciding that no, they really couldn't be bothered to learn the native language. They decide that it is perfectly acceptable to continue speaking their own language and that it is our responsibility to make the effort to learn theirs in order to communicate. They then instruct their children that there is no need to learn the local language either. I honestly can't see why they would do this except out of a sense of their own superiority over the rest of us. They are not making an effort to integrate themselves into the land that they have chosen as a new home.

Luckily, most of the foreigners I know have gone to a great deal of trouble to speak English properly (and no doubt have better grammar than some of the native speakers).

	26-04-2002 21:53									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

it's most likely beneficial to learn, but it shouldn't be required by law

	26-04-2002 22:08									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree with your point of view, Sava.
However, how quickly immigrants will be willing to learn the language of the country depends on how they are treated. If you were an immigrant in Germany for example, and you would approach a German in English and (s)he would only reply in German, even if (s)he did understand what you're saying, then you're more or less forced to learn German, just to go through daily life.
Furthermore, as Kropotkin pointed out, there are also the "immigrant neighborhoods" where the immigrants have everything they need, their own grocers, cafes et cetera, making them less dependent on having to learn the local language.

	26-04-2002 22:29									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Yeah, it is just a matter of common sense. If I would live in a foreign country, I would like to learn the local language not only to make things easy for me during the daily activities and interactions, but also to learn their culture, habits and way of thinking, things that are many times apparent through their language.

It is a matter of learning new cultures. Being as much cosmopolitan as possible.

When I first started to post here, I was very ashamed of my English knowledge. Now I still am , but I'm trying to improve it instead of thinking "oh, what will the others think about my English"?

Alex

	26-04-2002 22:32									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hell, Alex. You do better than most of the Canadians here.

	26-04-2002 22:39									#30
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Alexnm "oh, what will the others think about my English"? Alex

They'll probably think that you are English, mate ... you seem pretty fluent to me.
Well done on that, by the way, I'm SO glad that I haven't had to learn English ... seems like it would be as hard as trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.