27-04-2002 02:06									#31
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Yes and correct me if im wrong, UK has backed the protestants. Which hold down the catholic minority with jim crow like laws.

And who says Americans are ignorant of other countries

	27-04-2002 02:17									#32
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon I don't know. Circumstances different though - you wouldn't have been there for centuries.

So if we occupy and opress them for another century or two, it will be eventually acceptable?

	27-04-2002 02:19									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Eli So if we occupy and opress them for another century or two, it will be eventually acceptable?

Iiiiits the American waaaaaaaaaay.

	27-04-2002 02:19									#34
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Who said it doesn't belong to my country?

Jordan and Egypt wavered their right to the territories.

No independant country existed on them prior to that.


Also, a large chunck of the settlements are infact re-settlements.

There were Jewish villages and towns that were uprooted in the war of 1948, and the Jews expelled or massacared.

If you think that palestinians have a right to return to the towns from which they were expelled, surely you support the same for Jews?

I do however admit it's two faced to give jews the RoR and deny it from the Pals, therefore I support of uprooting most of the settlements, and trading lands for those which are large and that can be assimilated into Israel without disrupting Palestine's territory.

	27-04-2002 02:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Iiiiits the American waaaaaaaaaay.

Then what right do you(not personally) have to criticize us?

	27-04-2002 02:21									#36
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What a stupid, stupid article.

I mean, the only way for people to discourage Europe is voicing its moral beliefs is to call them all anti-Semites .

One of the main differences between British occupation of Ireland with the Israeli occupation of Palestine: There was no Geneva Convention back then. Furthermore, the Brits annexed the land, and didn't just simply make it occupied.

I mean, Palestinians have to pay tax but can't vote!!

Taxation without Representation

	27-04-2002 02:23									#37
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I didnt know that Pals living in the Gaza Strip, Judea and Samaria pay taxes to Israel. Do you have a source, Imran?

	27-04-2002 02:26									#38
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quote: I didnt know that Pals living in the Gaza Strip, Judea and Samaria pay taxes to Israel. Do you have a source, Imran?

Ugh... you'll have to give me some time. But I'm pretty damned sure they do (but perhaps it goes to the PA and then to Israel).

quote: I do however admit it's two faced to give jews the RoR and deny it from the Pals, therefore I support of uprooting most of the settlements, and trading lands for those which are large and that can be assimilated into Israel without disrupting Palestine's territory.

That isn't a bad idea... now allow for a Palestinian state, which is mostly contigious (except Gaza) and now you are talking .

	27-04-2002 02:30									#39
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This is about the first Intifada:

http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/review/326546.html

quote: The Intifada was a period of Civil Disobedience during which the Palestinians boycotted Israeli goods, jobs, and refused to pay taxes.

http://www.jqf-jerusalem.org/journa...6/odonnell.html

quote: Since 1967 the Jerusalem Municipality had always provided the camp with its water supply. The bill for the water was paid by the Israeli Civil Administration, the governing authority in the West Bank, out of taxes collected from the Occupied Territories. In 1989, however, at the height of the intifada, a tax boycott in the West Bank spurred the Civil Administration to look for ways to cut costs.

I'll try to find out what is going on now.

	27-04-2002 02:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui (but perhaps it goes to the PA and then to Israel).

Maybe in form of payments for electricity or other services provided by Israel. But not as taxes.

	27-04-2002 02:34									#41
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From the Jerusalem Post:

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/...nion.40669.html

quote: For 15 months Israel has been devastating the Palestinian economy by its refusal to turn over millions of dollars of taxes and fees it collects from Palestinians.

Israel is keeping the taxes from the Palestinians.

	27-04-2002 02:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui This is about the first Intifada: http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/review/326546.html quote: The Intifada was a period of Civil Disobedience during which the Palestinians boycotted Israeli goods, jobs, and refused to pay taxes. I'll try to find out what is going on now.

If we're talking about the first intifada, then it might be possible.
After all, Israel administered the Pal cities and was providing all services so taxes had to be collected.

	27-04-2002 02:40									#43
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LOL....it's hardly the American Way...where do you suppose we learned it from!

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 03:03									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx LOL....it's hardly the American Way...where do you suppose we learned it from! -=Vel=-

Nazi Germany. Oh, you don't mean your political system?

	27-04-2002 03:23									#45
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Isn't the xenophobia displayed in this article as bad as any criticism that Europe has levelled at the Jews? I am actually rather surprised that the Washington Post has such raving loonies...

	27-04-2002 03:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What a stupid, stupid article. I mean, the only way for people to discourage Europe is voicing its moral beliefs is to call them all anti-Semites

Since when is burning down synagogues "voicing your moral beliefs"? I suppose comparing the Shield of David to the swastika is a moral belief as well, not anti-semitism...

I don't like the extreme pro-Israel pundits who claim every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. That being said, however, it has become obvious that anti-semitism is still alive and well in France, Belgium, Germany and other parts of Europe. The "holier than thou" rhetoric spouted by many Europeans (including some on this board) gets very tiring. If you want to act like the world's moral watchdog, you should take care of the hatred that exists in your own countries first. Once your societies stop attacking synagogues and supporting fascists like Le Pen, you can try and claim some sort of moral superiority. Until that day, however, kindly shut the hell up.

	27-04-2002 03:40									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Since when is burning down synagogues "voicing your moral beliefs"? I suppose comparing the Shield of David to the swastika is a moral belief as well, not anti-semitism... I don't like the extreme pro-Israel pundits who claim every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism. That being said, however, it has become obvious that anti-semitism is still alive and well in France, Belgium, Germany and other parts of Europe. The "holier than thou" rhetoric spouted by many Europeans (including some on this board) gets very tiring. If you want to act like the world's moral watchdog, you should take care of the hatred that exists in your own countries first. Once your societies stop attacking synagogues and supporting fascists like Le Pen, you can try and claim some sort of moral superiority. Until that day, however, kindly shut the hell up.

Why bring up Le Pen? It's a French situation, hardly representative of Europe as a whole. And we have a right to comment on severe injustices and barbaric practises (which many Americans on this board support).

	27-04-2002 03:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Why bring up Le Pen? It's a French situation, hardly representative of Europe as a whole. And we have a right to comment on severe injustices and barbaric practises (which many Americans on this board support).

Eh? He said Germany, Austria, Belgium didn't he? Not to mention the recent wars in the Balkans.

Besides it's not a though the Iron Curtain still exists. Your borders are quite porous, no?

	27-04-2002 03:51									#49
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Why bring up Le Pen? It's a French situation, hardly representative of Europe as a whole.

That's why I specifically mentioned France, Belgium, and Germany. These countries are where the majority of the anti-semitic acts in Europe are happening. Britain seems relatively free of this current wave of anti-semitic violence, so I wasn't really talking about them. Britain has its problems, but I don't hear as much moralizing from them as from other parts of Europe.

	27-04-2002 04:02									#50
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quote: That isn't a bad idea... now allow for a Palestinian state, which is mostly contigious (except Gaza) and now you are talking

I have no problem with it.

I'm a peace man in heart.

However I want Arafat and friends "out of the way". Obviously Sharon will leave shortly after that.

Also, RoR can potencially lead to the destruction of Israel, therefore it can't happen.

I know that in terms of utopia it would be wonderfull if we could simply live in peace, and build a united Isra-Palestine.

However, this isn't utopia.

This was one of the visions by the first Zionists (some of whom thought of palestinians as naturally citizens of comrades of the Jews).

The other one was two states for two people.

And the third one ignored the palestinian people, which frankly, were quite easy to ignore until the late 20s, since they weren't that many, weren't that strong or agressive, and were mostly simple peasants, who didn't own their lands.



The Israeli public thinks the same way I do.

Recent polls show over 60% support of the military operations.

However it's also ~60% support for the Saudi proposal.


We want peace - but we want
a) the terror to end
b) the terrorists to be killed /trialed

	27-04-2002 04:25									#51
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The National Front, and similar parties are not only functional in France, but also in Austria, the new federal states in Germany, and to a lesser extent in the rest of Europe. I could of course be wrong, but this is the perception I get from the news. Also, we're not saying that everybody in Europe is anti-semetic, merely that it seems to be on the rise, and is popular among extremists.

The American equivalent, who would probably be Pat Buchanan, was a dismal failure in his last run for the presidency, being beaten even by Ralph Nader if I recall correctly. Considering the frequent accusations of American jingoism and nationalism, our population seems to value a far less xenophobic agenda than certain extremists in Europe.

	27-04-2002 04:32									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Isn't the xenophobia displayed in this article as bad as any criticism that Europe has levelled at the Jews? I am actually rather surprised that the Washington Post has such raving loonies...

I have no idea what xenophobia you're refering to. Americans have highly positive views of Europe, when we pay attention to you. This might be less so for France, but any criticism towards them is mostly just as a joke. The criticism in the article is towards certain elites and extremists, and it would be a tough reach to say that it's xenophobic.

If that made little sense, let me sum up. Americans like Europe, except for France, which we make fun of a lot. Mostly we don't care though, since you all are really far away and generally nice anyways. However, there is some criticism towards a rise of anti-Israeli sentiment, especially since mainstream Americans have sympathy for Israel's terrorist problem.

Also we have either the largest or the second largest Jewish population, I'm sure Natan or somebody knows the exact figures, so many Americans have Jewish friends or associates, and take a more personal view towards anti-Jewish activities.

	27-04-2002 04:37									#53
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Yes. It is quite funny to see how some Europeans seem to think they have the cat's *ss of societies and know better than everyone else how everyone should govern themselves.

However, how many times did former British colonies bail their butts out of the cess pools they made for themselves in the 20th century? Two, three times at least.

It really is quite funny, sometimes. However, the denial that Fascism and anti-Semitism are alive and thriving in their own back yards is somewhat disturbing. Where have I heard of that sort of willful blindness before?

	27-04-2002 04:39									#54
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Again, the ignorance oozes forward, as is shown in this article. There is no outward expression of antisemitism here whatsoever, and I really don't understand where some of the American gutter press are getting this notion.

And yes, France has a problem with the strength of Le Pen, but that is an isolated problem. We don't like the thuggery that Israel has employed in the handling of this situation, and which it has simmering under the surface since Sharon's rise to power.

And as for this antisemitism simmering under the surface in the past 50 years - where? It's dead.

	27-04-2002 04:42									#55
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If anti-semitism is dead, why are synagogues being burned to the ground? Don't be so naive...

	27-04-2002 04:44									#56
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So, no synagogues have been burned?

That French tw*t really wasn't a government official?

Jewish people in Berlin are completely safe?

Good to know. BTW. Do you have any information other than denial that Europe has it's own problems?

	27-04-2002 04:45									#57
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Really, some of the anti-european sh*t I see coming out of the mouths of some of the Israelis and Europeans. That stuff Eli said in the earlier post is effectively racist against Germans.

So we don't just tolerate it when you stomp over another people? Yeah, we've had a colourful history, and as a population, we know better now as a rule. Get your heads out of your collective arses.

	27-04-2002 04:46									#58
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"And yes, Germany has a problem with the strength of Hitler, but that is an isolated problem". (European comment, circa 1938).

	27-04-2002 04:47									#59
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North Americans have their hands out of their arses PH.

Remember. We're the ones who are usually there to help put the pieces back together after Europe blows the deal. Us and the Aussies and Kiwis.

	27-04-2002 04:49									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If anti-semitism is dead, why are synagogues being burned to the ground? Don't be so naive...

Well I can't account for the rest of Europe, but over here no synagogues have been burnt whatsoever. But certain areas of Europe have always had a problem with neo-nazis.