27-04-2002 04:50									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx LOL....it's hardly the American Way...where do you suppose we learned it from! -=Vel=-

Oh wait...I know this one...The English?

Yep...England in Ireland and Scotland, and later in Australia/NZ towards the aborginals and Maoris.

	27-04-2002 04:51									#62
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither North Americans have their hands out of their arses PH. Remember. We're the ones who are usually there to help put the pieces back together after Europe blows the deal. Us and the Aussies and Kiwis.

Is this the 'We Saved Your Arse In World War Two™' bullsh*t again? Is that all you can say? For once, you are the main part of this mess, yes, you, the United States. So don't you dare tell me about the problem being of our cause.

	27-04-2002 04:52									#63
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Britain is an exception to many things European. Pity that circumstances forced you to tie yourselves to that mob.

	27-04-2002 04:52									#64
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LOL Red John...I sincerely hope you don't believe that our political system is much in line with, or has much in common with Nazi Germany. If so, I'd invite you to come here and have a look around for yourself.

No...I was referring to the nation that spawned us...you might be passingly familiar with the little island nation that juts off of Europe....the one that once ruled oh...'bout half the world with the general policy of "make the world England" (don't think that was ever said, but the intent was clear enough).

Aside from that, the US of A hasn't been around long enough to "occupy and oppress" anybody for a couple of centuries, and though we DO have bases set up hither and yon, it's been mostly our policy to staff them to prevent others from fighting tooth and nail, or to give us areas of rapid response, not to stir the pot (Japan, our bases in Europe, Korea, etc). Not saying we haven't behaved in an Imperialistic fashion now and again....just pointing out that it's a behavior learned quite clearly from our forefathers in Europe.

I'm afraid we've not been around long enough to even begin to approch the level of boogy man Euros sometimes like to paint that we are.

You mentioned Native Americans, and yes, they were treated badly by the United States....but were they treated any worse by us than say....Spain? (the nation that toppled ancient American Empires and depopulated entire regions).

Did we "colonize" nearly fifty percent of the planet and install our own governors?

I musta been sleeping in history class....missed that part.

I don't buy into the overall tone of the article, btw....I think that yahoos like LePen are the exception and not the rule...but more and more frequently, I keep hearing about the kinna stuff portrayed in the article....not saying history is predestined to repeat itself, but it could very well if we're not mindful of it.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 04:52									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Oh wait...I know this one...The English? Yep...England in Ireland and Scotland, and later in Australia/NZ towards the aborginals and Maoris.

And shall we bring up how you treated native Americans? It is history and is simply not relevent to this discussion. So quit barracking.

	27-04-2002 04:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Britain is an exception to many things European. Pity that circumstances forced you to tie yourselves to that mob.

What bullsh*t. You say lots, yet understand nothing. How much do you really know about Europe? Take your ignorant mouth and get out of here.

	27-04-2002 04:55									#67
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Errrm. I'm not an American.

And just how is the American assurance of a Jewish state in Israel different from British guarantees to Poland. Both are for principles.

My allusions to the past are my way of saying that Europeans should not be too holier than thou to other people in other, very difficult situations.

	27-04-2002 04:57									#68
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Errrm. I'm not an American.

So what are you then?

quote: And just how is the American assurance of a Jewish state in Israel different from British guarantees to Poland. Both are for principles.

Considerably different. The Poles weren't oppressing the Germans

	27-04-2002 04:58									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison For once, you are the main part of this mess, yes, you, the United States. So don't you dare tell me about the problem being of our cause.

I beg to differ. The problems in Palestine originated under British rule. America just inherited the problem when your Empire collapsed. America is responsible for its own share of problems in the world (particularly in Latin America) but you can't blame the conflict in Palestine on us.

	27-04-2002 04:59									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison And shall we bring up how you treated native Americans? It is history and is simply not relevent to this discussion. So quit barracking.

Okay, Ignorant American(tm) question....

What the hell does "Barracking" mean?

	27-04-2002 05:03									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Considerably different. The Poles weren't oppressing the Germans

Poland was, however, occupying former German territories with a majority German population. Wasn't Germany justified in attacking Poland to free their German brothers from a humiliating Polish occupation?

	27-04-2002 05:04									#72
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PH. I'm Canadian.

And the Israelis would by and large like to stop occupying Palestinians. But what they need first is peace. You do not make peace with someone who is still killing your soldiers and civilians. The British are very up on this procedure of warfare. Why criticise others who follow a sensible path?

It would be a whole other matter if the Palestinians had a Mandela or a Gandhi leading them.

	27-04-2002 05:07									#73
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither PH. I'm Canadian. And the Israelis would by and large like to stop occupying Palestinians. But what they need first is peace. You do not make peace with someone who is still killing your soldiers and civilians. The British are very up on this procedure of warfare. Why criticise others who follow a sensible path? It would be a whole other matter if the Palestinians had a Mandela or a Gandhi leading them.

A cornered rat fights hard. The Israeli state has had the opportunity to solve this mess in the past, but the whole affair has flared up again since the election of Sharon. It's a difficult one to solve, but brutality is just going to fan the flames, not solve it. That will take something a little less 'easy' than simple thuggery.

	27-04-2002 05:09									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Poland was, however, occupying former German territories with a majority German population. Wasn't Germany justified in attacking Poland to free their German brothers from a humiliating Polish occupation?

That was not what happened though was it? Germany wanted to occupy Poland for completely different reasons. The allocation of territories were the result of the settlement of WWI. They may have returned at a later date. But you know as well as I do, that was not the intention of Nazi Germany to return those provinces, but to take Poland.

	27-04-2002 05:14									#75
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Feels strange to be on the opposite side of the fence from PH...as I recall, he and I are usually in agreement.

I would say though, that Israel has offered QUITE generous terms to the Palestenian leadership (a known supporter of terrorism, btw), only to have those offers rejected across the board.

It comes back to the question that really lies at the center of resolving the conflict at hand: Can you/should you negotiate with terrorists?

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:15									#76
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One mans terrorist is another mans hero. The likes of George Washington et al at one point were regarded as terrorists. It comes down to definition.

	27-04-2002 05:17									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison A cornered rat fights hard. The Israeli state has had the opportunity to solve this mess in the past, but the whole affair has flared up again since the election of Sharon. It's a difficult one to solve, but brutality is just going to fan the flames, not solve it. That will take something a little less 'easy' than simple thuggery.

And the Israelis have made peace where they had evidence of a willing partner in peace. Unfortunately, Arafat has never been able to fake good intentions for long enough.

People sometimes elect or appoint the people they need for the hour. Seems to me a lot of people would have said similar nasty things about Churchill in the 1920s and 30s.

Brutality sometimes must be met with brutality. To be weak is to invite destruction. If you are refering to recent actions of the IDF, just what would you have them do when there is a never ending stream of human bombs targeting Israeli children?

	27-04-2002 05:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison That was not what happened though was it? Germany wanted to occupy Poland for completely different reasons. The allocation of territories were the result of the settlement of WWI. They may have returned at a later date. But you know as well as I do, that was not the intention of Nazi Germany to return those provinces, but to take Poland.

Just as it is not the intention of the Arab powers to merely return the West Bank and Gaza to Arab control. They want to take all of Palestine back. Aren't you seeing the similarities? The plight of oppressed ethnic "brothers" has been used before as a cover for greater plans.

	27-04-2002 05:17									#79
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This is true, however, I would argue that a man or woman who ties a load of TNT to their body, walks into a non-military target (say, a cafe or hotel) and detonates is clearly not trying to make a military statement. Wouldn't you agree?

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:18									#80
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There is a very big difference between modern terrorism directed at civilians and rebellions where soldiers are the enemy.

	27-04-2002 05:19									#81
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Here in California I find that a significant number of liberals are saying things about Jews, Sharon and Israel that are indistinguishable from what Hitler said about the Jews in Mein Kampf. "Those people" is an expression I have heard, and often. There is true hatred in their speech.

I don't live in France or England, but I would like to enquire: Does the discussion of the Middle East among the average person sound more like a principled discussion of ideas or hatred?

Note above that I identified "liberals" as the somewhat exclusive source of the anti-Israeli hatred. I suspect that the same is true in France and England.

Why?

Ned

	27-04-2002 05:20									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I would argue that a man or woman who ties a load of TNT to their body, walks into a non-military target (say, a cafe or hotel) and detonates is clearly not trying to make a military statement. Wouldn't you agree?

No, I wouldn't. Terrorism is as much a military problem as a law enforcement problem, IMO.

	27-04-2002 05:21									#83
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Neo-nazis are liberal?

	27-04-2002 05:22									#84
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I agree it's a military and law enforcement problem but the terrorist doing the exploding is just out to cause indiscriminent harm....he's not targeting enemy military units to drive them out of his homeland, he's just hurting anybody on hand.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2002 05:27									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx This is true, however, I would argue that a man or woman who ties a load of TNT to their body, walks into a non-military target (say, a cafe or hotel) and detonates is clearly not trying to make a military statement. Wouldn't you agree? -=Vel=-

I would agree. However the problem is, how much of this is directly state sponsored? Is overwhelming power going to solve the situation? No, it is exacerbating the problem. This is a mess, and one that isn't going to be resolved like this by either side. Still, it is no justification for the IDF to just carry on like this.

	27-04-2002 05:29									#86
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And here I thought that 9/11 might have heralded an end for toleration of terrorism directed at civilians. D*mn. It was looking good there for a few weeks.

	27-04-2002 05:29									#87
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Vel: I would still say that the terrorist should be classified as a soldier because that is what they are. Warfare against the civilian population of an area has been part and parcel of military history for centuries. It is one of the most counterproductive forms that one could choose though.

	27-04-2002 05:30									#88
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Terrorists do not wear uniforms while on a mission. Therefore they would be subject to summary execution if they were treated as soldiers.

	27-04-2002 05:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Terrorists do not wear uniforms while on a mission. Therefore they would be subject to summary execution if they were treated as soldiers.

And?

	27-04-2002 05:33									#90
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If you call them soldiers, you are legitimizing their tactics.